Studying Music Production in the EU

[psicomagia]

Hi guys,

I'd like to ask if any of you have recommendations for trainings or courses (academic or not) regarding music production.

I've always prefered to learn stuff on my own but unfortunately there are some things that are simply not possible to learn if you didn't really experienced it. For example, in my country we don't really have a single program regarding music production that is lead by actual professionals that actually know what they're doing. There are not much equipped studios where you can work with the tools and learn by experience. Most people here go abroad to study when they have the chance and want to dive in more deeply in the subject.

Another dramatic point is networking. Music is an area that is totally limited where I live, and because of this I definitely consider moving anywhere else to be able to work with what I love the most, which is music. But I get to know people and in my mind traveling abroad for studying maybe the wisest thing to do at first.

Because of this I'm asking for opinions. I have an opportunity to stay in the EU next year for a period of time and I'd like to dive in more deeply in the technical aspects of music production like mixing and recording. I don't really know if this is a good or a bad idea and I'm asking this because right now I'm exactly investigating wether this would be worth it or not. If it's worth the investment or if there's anything else that would be more wise to do.

Any thoughts on this? I've seen some places like Shoogle Studios but that's mostly people teaching how to operate Ableton Live. This is not really what I want. I've also looked into HDPK in Berlin, but I don't really want to do another 4-year BA's course (as I'm already gratuated). I've read some people saying that most of these courses are definitely not worth it at all. What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance, I hope my ideas weren't so confusing regarding of what I want.

I'll tour the EU with my band starting in September this year, so If I could go to any of these places and know/see it beforehand it would be ideal.

[pafavag]

I have no experience with such courses myself but I was reading an interview with dax j where he talks about it briefly.

„If I was to do it all again or advise anyone, I would do a private course like SAE. Its a lot more focused specific to DJ’s and Music production and you can do the full degree quicker than at Uni. ”

The whole interview’s here: https://bunker-music.com/interview/dax-j/ but there’s not mich more on the subject

[psicomagia]

I have no experience with such courses myself but I was reading an interview with dax j where he talks about it briefly.

„If I was to do it all again or advise anyone, I would do a private course like SAE. Its a lot more focused specific to DJ’s and Music production and you can do the full degree quicker than at Uni. ”

The whole interview’s here: https://bunker-music.com/interview/dax-j/ but there’s not mich more on the subject

Thanks for sharing this, just downloaded the SAE brochures and it's pretty interesting!

[juodas]

Ha, Music production is useless!
I studied in UK 2 years(yeah studied don't give a damn about that either)
But listen, what I learned in a first year how to use 3 different DAW's which only use Ableton I'm afraid. Creating your social dj page, that was serious one.
Considering that our group had to choose between recording and electronic music. I choose electronic music, but they didn't learn me anything and We didn't have any lessons about electronic music and style of it. Had 2 submit 2 tracks at the end of the year as final project
Second year, what I learned was how to use ozone, and pretty much other bits are blog writing, comparing vsts, and analyse someones opinion/review about the plugins and write an review, writing a sample pack and other stuff. All other bits they showed you could easily found that on youtube, and to be true I was quite suprised that people in my don't look for any tutorials on youtube and to be true all of us had a different taste in music, I wa only one who liked techno in those 2 years.
Maybe if you want to build connections yeah give an a go, but I don't see a point in Music Production courses anyway you will do more write up work rather than practical.
You could learn a lot of more stuff on your self than spending a lot of money on a course where's nowadays it's pretty much useless, you can do everything on your own, but by the time your music will evolve and you will find right people or people will come to you, one way or another.
There's Finish More music Courses cost like 400£ and i think registration closes today and other re-opens october or something like that. There's few podcast by them on their website, maybe you will be interested in it.

Believe me I was expecting totally different thing when I came in, but at the end of the first year I though it was a scam. if they could have a different plan how learn students and use their time efficiently that would be a different story MAYBE.

However It's only you who decides

[psicomagia]

Ha, Music production is useless!
I studied in UK 2 years(yeah studied don't give a damn about that either)
But listen, what I learned in a first year how to use 3 different DAW's which only use Ableton I'm afraid. Creating your social dj page, that was serious one.
Considering that our group had to choose between recording and electronic music. I choose electronic music, but they didn't learn me anything and We didn't have any lessons about electronic music and style of it. Had 2 submit 2 tracks at the end of the year as final project
Second year, what I learned was how to use ozone, and pretty much other bits are blog writing, comparing vsts, and analyse someones opinion/review about the plugins and write an review, writing a sample pack and other stuff. All other bits they showed you could easily found that on youtube, and to be true I was quite suprised that people in my don't look for any tutorials on youtube and to be true all of us had a different taste in music, I wa only one who liked techno in those 2 years.
Maybe if you want to build connections yeah give an a go, but I don't see a point in Music Production courses anyway you will do more write up work rather than practical.
You could learn a lot of more stuff on your self than spending a lot of money on a course where's nowadays it's pretty much useless, you can do everything on your own, but by the time your music will evolve and you will find right people or people will come to you, one way or another.
There's Finish More music Courses cost like 400£ and i think registration closes today and other re-opens october or something like that. There's few podcast by them on their website, maybe you will be interested in it.

Believe me I was expecting totally different thing when I came in, but at the end of the first year I though it was a scam. if they could have a different plan how learn students and use their time efficiently that would be a different story MAYBE.

However It's only you who decides

Yeah, this is not the first time I read an opinion about this. I'm actually gratuated in Graphic Design BA and my thoughts about my course are the same, a total waste of time. Almost everything I learned that mattered for the market I learned by my own or by working with people that were there for longer in the business. I'm definitely in doubt, because evaluating the costs they ask for these courses it's a huge amount of money. Maybe by being an "intern" in a studio could be way more beneficial. But I don't really know how I'd do this and work to pay for stuff at the same time. I could just fund some time as intern instead of paying for a course, definitely.

Thanks a lot for your insight. I'll check Finish More.

[juodas]

Ha, Music production is useless!
I studied in UK 2 years(yeah studied don't give a damn about that either)
But listen, what I learned in a first year how to use 3 different DAW's which only use Ableton I'm afraid. Creating your social dj page, that was serious one.
Considering that our group had to choose between recording and electronic music. I choose electronic music, but they didn't learn me anything and We didn't have any lessons about electronic music and style of it. Had 2 submit 2 tracks at the end of the year as final project
Second year, what I learned was how to use ozone, and pretty much other bits are blog writing, comparing vsts, and analyse someones opinion/review about the plugins and write an review, writing a sample pack and other stuff. All other bits they showed you could easily found that on youtube, and to be true I was quite suprised that people in my don't look for any tutorials on youtube and to be true all of us had a different taste in music, I wa only one who liked techno in those 2 years.
Maybe if you want to build connections yeah give an a go, but I don't see a point in Music Production courses anyway you will do more write up work rather than practical.
You could learn a lot of more stuff on your self than spending a lot of money on a course where's nowadays it's pretty much useless, you can do everything on your own, but by the time your music will evolve and you will find right people or people will come to you, one way or another.
There's Finish More music Courses cost like 400£ and i think registration closes today and other re-opens october or something like that. There's few podcast by them on their website, maybe you will be interested in it.

Believe me I was expecting totally different thing when I came in, but at the end of the first year I though it was a scam. if they could have a different plan how learn students and use their time efficiently that would be a different story MAYBE.

However It's only you who decides

Yeah, this is not the first time I read an opinion about this. I'm actually gratuated in Graphic Design BA and my thoughts about my course are the same, a total waste of time. Almost everything I learned that mattered for the market I learned by my own or by working with people that were there for longer in the business. I'm definitely in doubt, because evaluating the costs they ask for these courses it's a huge amount of money. Maybe by being an "intern" in a studio could be way more beneficial. But I don't really know how I'd do this and work to pay for stuff at the same time. I could just fund some time as intern instead of paying for a course, definitely.

Thanks a lot for your insight. I'll check Finish More.

Oh man believe me, I had to work full time and go to college full time in first year, at 2nd year a did that for 3 months, and changed my contract hours to get more time for me and my music, and "assignments", Didn't want to take a maintanance loan, just for a living and other bits, I thought fuck it, hardcore mode and that's it. And here i'm now drinking beer with -200 in my bank and 4 missed deadlines
I think the only good way to improve(faster) is to find a mentor who knows what he/she is doing or what ever, but has the knowledge in the industry and other bits like music production. and find a right group of people with a same interest as you, cause "together we are strongerzz". If you can't find a community in ur area build your own.

[psicomagia]

Ha, Music production is useless!
I studied in UK 2 years(yeah studied don't give a damn about that either)
But listen, what I learned in a first year how to use 3 different DAW's which only use Ableton I'm afraid. Creating your social dj page, that was serious one.
Considering that our group had to choose between recording and electronic music. I choose electronic music, but they didn't learn me anything and We didn't have any lessons about electronic music and style of it. Had 2 submit 2 tracks at the end of the year as final project
Second year, what I learned was how to use ozone, and pretty much other bits are blog writing, comparing vsts, and analyse someones opinion/review about the plugins and write an review, writing a sample pack and other stuff. All other bits they showed you could easily found that on youtube, and to be true I was quite suprised that people in my don't look for any tutorials on youtube and to be true all of us had a different taste in music, I wa only one who liked techno in those 2 years.
Maybe if you want to build connections yeah give an a go, but I don't see a point in Music Production courses anyway you will do more write up work rather than practical.
You could learn a lot of more stuff on your self than spending a lot of money on a course where's nowadays it's pretty much useless, you can do everything on your own, but by the time your music will evolve and you will find right people or people will come to you, one way or another.
There's Finish More music Courses cost like 400£ and i think registration closes today and other re-opens october or something like that. There's few podcast by them on their website, maybe you will be interested in it.

Believe me I was expecting totally different thing when I came in, but at the end of the first year I though it was a scam. if they could have a different plan how learn students and use their time efficiently that would be a different story MAYBE.

However It's only you who decides

Yeah, this is not the first time I read an opinion about this. I'm actually gratuated in Graphic Design BA and my thoughts about my course are the same, a total waste of time. Almost everything I learned that mattered for the market I learned by my own or by working with people that were there for longer in the business. I'm definitely in doubt, because evaluating the costs they ask for these courses it's a huge amount of money. Maybe by being an "intern" in a studio could be way more beneficial. But I don't really know how I'd do this and work to pay for stuff at the same time. I could just fund some time as intern instead of paying for a course, definitely.

Thanks a lot for your insight. I'll check Finish More.

Oh man believe me, I had to work full time and go to college full time in first year, at 2nd year a did that for 3 months, and changed my contract hours to get more time for me and my music, and "assignments", Didn't want to take a maintanance loan, just for a living and other bits, I thought fuck it, hardcore mode and that's it. And here i'm now drinking beer with -200 in my bank and 4 missed deadlines
I think the only good way to improve(faster) is to find a mentor who knows what he/she is doing or what ever, but has the knowledge in the industry and other bits like music production. and find a right group of people with a same interest as you, cause "together we are strongerzz". If you can't find a community in ur area build your own.

Yeah man, this (unfortunately) is not new to me in any way because it was the same with me when I was in college. And I can say that I only learned stuff by experiencing it in a practical way (as internship at the time). But this weekend I just met a friend who will put me in contact with friend of hers that is maybe willing to accept me as an intern in his mastering studio.

Regarding building a scene, there is a scene here and I'm proudly part of it, but this is not really about pursuing a DJ carreer, it's more about learning music production and engineering in a broader and more practical way (not only electronic). That's why I was asking for opinions, mostly looking for those like you who actually went to study it. But to be sincere, deep down inside I wasn't expecting something much different from your response, like it would be a life changer. Thanks a lot for sharing man!

[juodas]

Yeah, this is not the first time I read an opinion about this. I'm actually gratuated in Graphic Design BA and my thoughts about my course are the same, a total waste of time. Almost everything I learned that mattered for the market I learned by my own or by working with people that were there for longer in the business. I'm definitely in doubt, because evaluating the costs they ask for these courses it's a huge amount of money. Maybe by being an "intern" in a studio could be way more beneficial. But I don't really know how I'd do this and work to pay for stuff at the same time. I could just fund some time as intern instead of paying for a course, definitely.

Thanks a lot for your insight. I'll check Finish More.

Oh man believe me, I had to work full time and go to college full time in first year, at 2nd year a did that for 3 months, and changed my contract hours to get more time for me and my music, and "assignments", Didn't want to take a maintanance loan, just for a living and other bits, I thought fuck it, hardcore mode and that's it. And here i'm now drinking beer with -200 in my bank and 4 missed deadlines
I think the only good way to improve(faster) is to find a mentor who knows what he/she is doing or what ever, but has the knowledge in the industry and other bits like music production. and find a right group of people with a same interest as you, cause "together we are strongerzz". If you can't find a community in ur area build your own.

Yeah man, this (unfortunately) is not new to me in any way because it was the same with me when I was in college. And I can say that I only learned stuff by experiencing it in a practical way (as internship at the time). But this weekend I just met a friend who will put me in contact with friend of hers that is maybe willing to accept me as an intern in his mastering studio.

Regarding building a scene, there is a scene here and I'm proudly part of it, but this is not really about pursuing a DJ carreer, it's more about learning music production and engineering in a broader and more practical way (not only electronic). That's why I was asking for opinions, mostly looking for those like you who actually went to study it. But to be sincere, deep down inside I wasn't expecting something much different from your response, like it would be a life changer. Thanks a lot for sharing man!

It's good to hear man, it's really completely different experience working with someone who knows his stuff and so on, believe me it's not worth it go to uni just because of it, you won't learn what you expect, no techniques whatsoever

[Mono-xID]

Honestly I think this whole music production study thing is one big fraud. It's the digital age, all resources are right in front of you.

[dubdub]

Honestly I think this whole music production study thing is one big fraud. It's the digital age, all resources are right in front of you.

Yeah, I think it's crazy to charge thousands to tens of thousands of dollars for a degree, knowing that maybe 0,1% of graduates will ever make a living off it - and those would have done it without a degree. And a music production degree is completely useless for anything else. At least with an audio engineering degree you can track bands, do live & corporate sound etc.

[pafavag]

Yeah, but not all the courses are designed to get you employed after graduation. Some you go to just for the sake of studying it. Obviously paying tens of thousands for a music production course is hardly an investment but if you can afford it (and a lot of people can) and that's what you want to do, then why not? Besides as far as I understand the prices of such courses come from the costs of equipping the school with appropriate gear and hiring qualified staff. I doubt that they could successfully run such a course for 10% of the price because then there'd already be competition doing just that. I'm just guessing here though.

Like psicomagia I graduated in graphic design and from what I heard those courses are similar on many levels. People who have been already doing something in that field are usually disappointed as most of what they learn is either what they know already or completely unrelated to their specific interests. For me the course was a good experience because I just knew that I wanted to do graphic design but my interests weren't too specific and I had no experience. I got a chance to try different things, learn some theory and make a conscious decision what I want to do. But if I had gone there knowing already it would have been a big disappointment. And I think that's what happens to people who are into techno or any other genre, have been producing for some time already and decide to attend a course. It turns out to be not specific enough (or specific but for pop music) and too beginner oriented. What Joudas wrote already, I heard it many times from different people.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the idea of such a course itself (self studying is not for everyone), but there seems to be a problem either in the way they are designed or how they communicate what they can actually teach you. At least that's what I got talking to people who actually attended those courses.

[JARHEAD]

Honestly I think this whole music production study thing is one big fraud. It's the digital age, all resources are right in front of you.

THIS

However there is a pretty good place in Scotland that does lessons on production etc
Think its called shoogle studio

[psicomagia]

Honestly I think this whole music production study thing is one big fraud. It's the digital age, all resources are right in front of you.

I agree with you. I just needed to confirm this with people who actually did it or know about it.

However there are other courses/seminars that may be beneficial I guess?

A friend of mine did the CLA Mixing with the Masters seminar, at first I thought it was kinda funky because it was expensive and just a week long but from a business perspective this friend of mine evolved A LOT as a professional after this. Doing more commercial mixes, yes. But he's making a living out of music.

Is there anything like that you guys could recommend?

[Lost to the Void]

I do guest lecturing at universities, on a variety of subjects.
It always surprises me, when talking about production, or mix philosophy or whatever, how very little the students know about the basics.
It always mystifies me what they are actually being taught.
I mean I'll go do a guest lecture for a production course or music tech or whatever, and I'll start talking about subtractive EQ, or compression settings and sometimes they will be blank facing me, so I then ask them what they know, and it's usually NOT music production knowledge of any worth.
And this is 1st to 3rd year students.

You probably get more from short intense courses on specific things, at places like Point Blank or whatever, than you do degrees or the like.

And of course none of it will walk you in to a job.

[juodas]

Well Steve nailed it,
I think the only way you could have benefit out of studies, you could choose sound engineering, but keep that in mind, that most likely you will master/record live bands, live engineering and etc.
If you want to stick with electronic music production, I would suggest you just practice, make music and get a mentor if possible, there's no need to rush

[acesd619]

If you want to stick with electronic music production, I would suggest you just practice, make music and get a mentor if possible, there's no need to rush

This. I don't have any personal experience but I did think about it at some point before I passed the threshold of being a wild card. I have a cousin who went to some kind of production school in California and I still haven't heard a single track from him after some years. I think an artist is a collection of different experiences and creativity can't really be taught. Creative people are wired differently. Jordan Peterson once said creative people die when they don't create and I agree that it is essentially a curse.

Sonic Academy is good for picking up random techniques and I subscribe periodically to catch up on their tech tips. I remember learning how to add movement to a sustained note with an envelope follower coming from a drum loop. That kind of stuff isn't taught in a traditional setting.

Good luck!

[acesd619]

Nevermind the rant about creativity as I was thinking about my cousin. Geeze where was my head this morning.

[[wesellboxes]]

I mean I'll go do a guest lecture for a production course or music tech or whatever, and I'll start talking about subtractive EQ, or compression settings and sometimes they will be blank facing me, so I then ask them what they know, and it's usually NOT music production knowledge of any worth.

To get accreditation university courses have to fulfill a level of academia. Both regarding the course itself but also in relation to other subjects the university may teach. As such, a music tech course has to be as "worthy" as engineering, literature, economics, microbiology and so on. Hence the somewhat off-piste nature of various degrees around the country. When I was at Uni, I knew a couple of guys on the music production course, they just wanted standard SAE "how to mic a drum kit" and SSL mixing desk stuff and instead got 80% hardcore physics topped up with computer science.

To the OP, if you just want to make better tunes, online courses from Point Blank, Sonic Academy etc. There's no harm in doing a weekend or weeks course at one of these places either as it's always good to meet other people in real life.

If you want to take it a bit further and learn how to engineer a live show and all that, look at HNC/HND level courses at FE colleges rather than Uni. From my own experience (admittedly years ago), colleges are a lot better funded than uni meaning they're less restrictive and have better equipment. I also found the tutor's at FE college a lot more encouraging and supportive where uni lecturers were aloof and more concerned about paying their bills while they focused on their own projects.

[psicomagia]

Thanks a lot for the responses guys. These shorter Point Blank courses seems a lot more interesting than 2 or 4-year a bachelor full degree and give you access to the studios during the week and you could do sit offs with the tutors.

I do guest lecturing at universities, on a variety of subjects.
It always surprises me, when talking about production, or mix philosophy or whatever, how very little the students know about the basics.
It always mystifies me what they are actually being taught.
I mean I'll go do a guest lecture for a production course or music tech or whatever, and I'll start talking about subtractive EQ, or compression settings and sometimes they will be blank facing me, so I then ask them what they know, and it's usually NOT music production knowledge of any worth.
And this is 1st to 3rd year students.

You probably get more from short intense courses on specific things, at places like Point Blank or whatever, than you do degrees or the like.

And of course none of it will walk you in to a job.

I would definitely apply if you by any chance would give one of these short intense courses next year. While I don't have any problems with institutions, a personal approach would seriously increase the worth of the investment in my opinion.

[Thies]

I can only speak from my experiences.. I did a 2 year SAE Audio Engineering Diploma thingy:

First off I learned a lot in those 2 years and it pushed my skills a lot further. That beeing said it was a hard time working a almost fulltime job and being on campus/in the studios as much as i can. (shit's fucking expensive). At the time I lived almost next door so every free minute I was at a studio trying gear, doing sessions with other students together and share workflows knowledge and so on.
The Theory part on those kind of educations is very basic, most of it can be found online in forums, tutorials, or in books BUT you also get the chance to speak 1on1 with the teachers or sometimes get in sessions with seasoned engineers and see how they work - talk about their approach - which is kinda helpful. I was lucky to be in a small class with motivated students, it think we learned most from each other and we still meet sometimes to share new ideas, workflow tips, gear stuff and so forth.

Looking back, i would do it again but i am not sure if i would advise other people to take the course. I think if you go in there with 110% dedication and really try to make use of the infrastructure there it can push you a lot. (make sure there is enough studio time available - meaning not too much students and enough studios - we had 5 Studios in the building with different focus and were able to do night sessions in the big one) But if you only go there to get a worthless diploma or think that, by sitting into the class and only do the mandatory bullshit projects, you get some value out of it - its totally not worth the money.