Just noticed this on many techno tracks spectogramm

[zarkas]

Hey guys. I ve run many of my fav tracks through Pro Q's and watching the spectrum seeing where some frequencies are placed etc. I noticed that some tracks have content in the very VERY low are (25 hz) as you can see on the picture (big circle on the left) On that track the fundamental of the kick is on 55 Hz (small red circle)

My guess is that low region derives from the harmonic content of the kick or the bass but I was wondering if that is something you aim for via eq or else. Because on many of my trials to make a powerful low end I find always something lacking and today I just noticed that.

I always tend to lower the mids on my kick in order to avoid boosting the lows and later I bring the level till -12db. I then tried having some boost with Ableton's Auto Filter set on MS2 mode with a bit of resonance and drive and it actually helped a lot. But still I can't get that very very low info on my tracks. I do use my ears and not my eyes but my ears were the ones that showed my that something was always missing (even when I turned the final level up with a simple limiter)

Any suggestions are welcome! Thanks!

Low Low End.jpg (55.86 KiB) Viewed 2617 times

[Mattias]

The short answer is: this is absolutely common and nothing to worry about. Sounds doesn't suddenly brick-wall stop in their frequency spectrum.

[dubdub]

This is the spectrum of a raw 909 kick. You have frequency content all the way down to 10hz. These kind of frequencies are naturally present, unless you filter them all out (like some people do).

[RWise]

I always low cut my stuff below 30-20hz. You just dont need it.

[Lost to the Void]

Good question. I'm surprised this hasn't come up on here before.

So...

Gearslutz answer .. duh bro, like...use your ears bro... Like use your ears..... Meters are never gonna tell you the blah blah blah.


Proper answer:. 2 main reasons for this. 1, this is an inherent problem with realtime FFT analysers, the lower you go in frequency, the less accurate they are (offline analysers are more accurate in this respect), so you aren't really seeing what is there.
2, even a hard 48db hi pass at 30hz is going to leave some sound untouched below the centre frequency unless it is a dynamic eq using negative infinity threshold or multiple passes of a hi pass filters (which would effect the sound in horrible horrible ways).
In some ways in this respect the gearslutz answer is sort of right, but you need accurate sound representation down to at least 20hz, which is uncommon for most project studios.


Short answer: It's normal.

[Lost to the Void]

I always low cut my stuff below 30-20hz. You just dont need it.

Not true, you might not be able to hear it accurately in your room, but actually cutting by default at these frequencies can kill the low end guts of a tune.
The difference between cutting at 30 and cutting at 20 can completely transform a tune.
Sometimes having good information present at 30hz is very necessary to a tune.
And sometimes the archetypes caused by cutting at 30 due to the way the filter (the EQ filter that is) works can really blargh how critical low punch frequencies and transients work.

A trend I notice a lot when techno comes through the mastering room is people cutting from as high as 50 or 60hz. Generally a sign that the person is not getting accurate low end monitoring.

These days my advice would be cut away low end in channels that don't need bass, but channels that do, use shelving and/or and a low cut at 15 or 18hz just to give you back some headroom, and leave the accurate low end work to your mastering engineer who will be better placed to make that decision confidently.

[RWise]

Im usually quite aware about the type of sub information on a certain tune im making. Ive had tunes where the sub is very deep and in that case i would only roll off from 20hz without being too extreme. But ive found most of the stuff i make, the nature of the sub isnt needed in that extreme low area and it hasnt seemed to of hindered my mixes by getting rid of it. If anything, it gave me more headroom.

Ive actually seen you say before to cut 30hz as you dont need it too.

And why anyone would cut up to 50-60hz is just crazy!? That would completely kill the low thump in the tune.

[dubdub]

Funny that this topic comes up, just earlier today I was discussing sub frequences with Rodhad on a certain Berlin forum and he said that he puts a 48db cut at 30hz on every channel as part of his default channel strip... Seems a little extreme to me but the dude obviously knows how his tracks translate on club systems. (not saying that this is good practice necessarily, I even asked him why he doesn't leave it to the ME)

Btw if we are already on the topic, I usually like the Satson HP on most things but for some reason I don't like it on kicks and bass. I've been getting a bit into DMG Equilibirium recently and it has a million HPF and low shelf types.. any specific one you would recommend for a bit of rolling off on kick/bass? I've been liking the 6db Butterworth curve at 25-35hz on kicks, it somehow sounds tight and clean to me.

[RWise]

Funny that this topic comes up, just earlier today I was discussing sub frequences with Rodhad on a certain Berlin forum and he said that he puts a 48db cut at 30hz on every channel as part of his default channel strip... Seems a little extreme to me but the dude obviously knows how his tracks translate on club systems. (not saying that this is good practice necessarily, I even asked him why he doesn't leave it to the ME)

Btw if we are already on the topic, I usually like the Satson HP on most things but for some reason I don't like it on kicks and bass. I've been getting a bit into DMG Equilibirium recently and it has a million HPF and low shelf types.. any specific one you would recommend for a bit of rolling off on kick/bass? I've been liking the 6db Butterworth curve at 25-35hz on kicks, it somehow sounds tight and clean to me.

I mean, it sounds a little crazy but if you think about, maybe apart from your sub and kick, everything else in the mix you most likely arent going to want any 30hz information.

When i think about my own mixes, im always getting rid of 30hz on most non-low end elements. Some things literally have nothing there, so they dont even need to be cut.


Heard this tune on multiple rigs and it makes the subs roar every time

youtu.be/y46TUIgZmnk

[CRDM]

Funny that this topic comes up, just earlier today I was discussing sub frequences with Rodhad on a certain Berlin forum and he said that he puts a 48db cut at 30hz on every channel as part of his default channel strip... Seems a little extreme to me but the dude obviously knows how his tracks translate on club systems. (not saying that this is good practice necessarily, I even asked him why he doesn't leave it to the ME)

Btw if we are already on the topic, I usually like the Satson HP on most things but for some reason I don't like it on kicks and bass. I've been getting a bit into DMG Equilibirium recently and it has a million HPF and low shelf types.. any specific one you would recommend for a bit of rolling off on kick/bass? I've been liking the 6db Butterworth curve at 25-35hz on kicks, it somehow sounds tight and clean to me.

Which forum is that?

I prefer to use shelves on kicks and everything really, I use TDR Nova and Bx Console SSL G. If I do filter, usually 6db or the 12db bx console filters.

[Lost to the Void]

Im usually quite aware about the type of sub information on a certain tune im making. Ive had tunes where the sub is very deep and in that case i would only roll off from 20hz without being too extreme. But ive found most of the stuff i make, the nature of the sub isnt needed in that extreme low area and it hasnt seemed to of hindered my mixes by getting rid of it. If anything, it gave me more headroom.

Ive actually seen you say before to cut 30hz as you dont need it too.

And why anyone would cut up to 50-60hz is just crazy!? That would completely kill the low thump in the tune.

Yeah in general I have advised this, but over the last year as I have done more and more vinyl work and just more and more diverse work, and generally just got better at low end, I`m starting to think this is not good general advice, in that it comes with several caveats, and those caveats can have critical implications (and also no implications.... context).
Generally most techno studios are project studios and I would say 80% or more of them don`t get accurate low end information out of their room and speakers (which includes most people making music here on subsekt). Nearfields are just not good for making accurate judgements in this area.

So a more sound generic guide, I would say, is cutting 15-18 (on bass material) is a much better general rule in that it requires less (to no) caveats.

Cutting at 50-60 is not crazy at all, it`s all about context (and also how the higher order harmonics are working down low), some tunes can sound thick and banging down low with a cut this high, but again it`s not something that makes a good general rule as it can also strip out the weight of a tune.
I can only think cutting this high is becoming more common because aformentioned nearfields/small studios etc is not allowing people to accurately hear down here combined with bad information.

[Lost to the Void]

Funny that this topic comes up, just earlier today I was discussing sub frequences with Rodhad on a certain Berlin forum and he said that he puts a 48db cut at 30hz on every channel as part of his default channel strip... Seems a little extreme to me but the dude obviously knows how his tracks translate on club systems. (not saying that this is good practice necessarily, I even asked him why he doesn't leave it to the ME)

Btw if we are already on the topic, I usually like the Satson HP on most things but for some reason I don't like it on kicks and bass. I've been getting a bit into DMG Equilibirium recently and it has a million HPF and low shelf types.. any specific one you would recommend for a bit of rolling off on kick/bass? I've been liking the 6db Butterworth curve at 25-35hz on kicks, it somehow sounds tight and clean to me.

I would say that what he is doing is generally good practice (apart from doing so as default to all channels including those where bass is the requirement).
You can cut way way higher than that on, hi hats, for example.
Whilst I like some of his music, I have thought it is generally not very strong in the lows, being quite "poppy" EDM like mixes in his overall all spectrum balancing.
Now I know why.
That`s not to say it`s bad practice, but my ears are old school, I like warm and full low end that makes 24inch drivers do their job properly.

I actually find the harder curve on the satson to be quite useful when dealing with kicks..... within some situations.

[Mattias]

I've been raving about this for years. People HPF way too much and on the wrong things!

[Lost to the Void]

I've been raving about this for years. People HPF way too much and on the wrong things!

Yeah you have, I`m much more in with your line of thinking these days, when it comes to low end anyway.
Though you do get some people who manage to hipass too much on their hats, which is clearly when things have gone too far.

[Lost to the Void]

Heard this tune on multiple rigs and it makes the subs roar every time

youtu.be/y46TUIgZmnk

You are not hearing correctly.
What you are hearing is upper harmonics, upper chest, that`s not really making the subs do anything at all.
It`s bassy, sure, but it`s not subby at all.

I`ve noticed a general trend with this.
My suspicious is to do with loudness metering and how creating the illusion of bass (especially on badly run fucktion one rigs, that never really have done true low end anyway, not when compared to old floodlight TS24`s or something) gives more headroom, it also allows clubs to run their rigs "louder" than true full range would normally allow.
It seems to have become a production trend as I see a lot of it with stuff coming through the studio as I have mentioned. Once person does it, everyone copies etc etc

This is actually a great example. As the real sub weight just isn`t there.
No stomach hit at all.

[RWise]

yeah I can hear how that track is more upper harmonics and not really deep lows.

I mean, ill post a couple examples of tracks i think have proper low sub to my ears. Hopefully my perspective isnt too out of whack..

I find this topic interesting too as its fascinating how different some tracks translate depending on how they have been mixed in the low end department and the way different rigs are configured. Seems to be so many variables.

youtu.be/gpUCS4J2wzY
youtu.be/2PiEMHKy7Q0

[dubdub]

You are not hearing correctly.
What you are hearing is upper harmonics, upper chest, that`s not really making the subs do anything at all.
It`s bassy, sure, but it`s not subby at all.

I`ve noticed a general trend with this.
My suspicious is to do with loudness metering and how creating the illusion of bass (especially on badly run fucktion one rigs, that never really have done true low end anyway, not when compared to old floodlight TS24`s or something) gives more headroom, it also allows clubs to run their rigs "louder" than true full range would normally allow.

This is actually a great example. As the real sub weight just isn`t there.
No stomach hit at all.

Yeah, he was basically saying, a large amount of the rigs he plays on don't translate well at all below 40hz, the obvious punch and fatness is pretty much all 60hz+. I think he mentioned once that there was a DVS1 record he would play a lot where the kick sits at like 35hz or something and it would just get swallowed and dissapear with a lot of rigs. So the lack of sub is probably intentional.

[Lost to the Void]

yeah I can hear how that track is more upper harmonics and not really deep lows.

I mean, ill post a couple examples of tracks i think have proper low sub to my ears. Hopefully my perspective isnt too out of whack..

I find this topic interesting too as its fascinating how different some tracks translate depending on how they have been mixed in the low end department and the way different rigs are configured. Seems to be so many variables.

youtu.be/gpUCS4J2wzY
youtu.be/2PiEMHKy7Q0

Neither of those tracks are particularly subby, they have some sub, but I wouldn`t say there weighty by any means.

[dubdub]

I mean, ill post a couple examples of tracks i think have proper low sub to my ears. Hopefully my perspective isnt too out of whack..

youtu.be/PDQqDCTFhMs

For me this is the epitome of fat ass sub. This is actually the track me and Rodhad were discussing earlier. This is what it looks on an analyzer, it actually peaks at 40hz with the big ass sub, which is pretty damn low I think. The kick sits at 50hz. But I don't know if this kinda track would translate well on all rigs.

[RWise]

Neither of those tracks are particularly subby, they have some sub, but I wouldn`t say there weighty by any means.

Mind posting some examples of what you'd considering true sub hitters then?