Amateur hour at the renaissance fair

[Val Endrada]

Thought it fitting to post some sound instead of just being a witling in other people's threads. This is brand new, although not exactly modern sounding. Spent way too long coming up with a name for a Soundcloud account, but here it is. Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks.

[Amøbe]

Looking forward to hearing it (sometime in the weekend)

[Amøbe]

Thought it fitting to post some sound instead of just being a witling in other people's threads. This is brand new, although not exactly modern sounding. Spent way too long coming up with a name for a Soundcloud account, but here it is. Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks.

I like this - quite a lot! It has an Aphex-esque vibe First of all I'm wondering if you mix this inside or outside of the computer? (it sounds very hardware-heavy, but I am the first one to be fooled by digital sounding like analog stuff ). Because there is quite a lot going on, and I think that some of the advantages of mixing in the box could be useful for you.

First things first, I would try to turn some of the channels down, because I think they are fighting a bit much right now. The hats take up a lot of the image (and the kick doesn't really punch through - which could easily be related to the same thing). In general I find that just turning stuff down make it possible to hear more things. Then there is some gorgeous stringy sounds in the back. I'd love to hear them more, so they could on the contrary be turned up. Now there is a trick to this (if you don't know it), which Steve often brings up in here. That is to turn them up only in the sides. This gives an effect of them being louder, but where the sound source is not directly in front of you (which is where you want your drums and bass stuff) - therefore you can have them louder, without them really fighting the other stuff. If you use ableton, then the utility device has a width knob. If you push this over 100% it will start turning down the mono signal - and then you get this thing where the sides are louder than the mids It allows you to have your cake and eat it too!

I'd love to hear a more fine tuned mix (and hopefully somebody else might chip in, because the other guys have better ears than I do), because I think it is a really fascinating groove in the middle of this very eerie mood - great track

[Val Endrada]

I'd love to hear a more fine tuned mix

Hey there. And thank you for your kind suggestions. I'm glad you can dig it!

The tracks I have are live hardware overdubs (analogue drum machines and manual fx tweaking), so my options are pretty limited.

In an attempt to "clean up" the sound a bit, I got rid of unwanted low and high end frequencies (EQ), turned the drums down a bit and experimented with various degrees of "side-chain dipping" to allow more room for the kick. I also tried "the utility width trick" on the pads you suggested - and layered a break beat kick on top of the existing kick - for a sharper kick attack (transient?).

Comparing the two version, I'm not sure it's an improvement. It's not terrible, but I still kind of like the messy version (including the obscure kick). I think I need to listen to something else now:) Ha ha!

Here it is:



Thanks!

[Amøbe]

I'd love to hear a more fine tuned mix

Thanks!

I definitely think this one bangs more effectively (and the pad stuff are shining better) - great stuff

[dubdub]

Topend feels slighty muddy. Some of those really deep subs are a bit out of control. That acid-ish line is mixed a touch loud.

[Val Endrada]

Topend feels slighty muddy. Some of those really deep subs are a bit out of control. That acid-ish line is mixed a touch loud.

Thank you taking the time to listen and comment.

I removed some "muddy frequencies" from the percussive sounds and tried transforming the bass line into something more like "kick-rumble". Adjusted timing between individual tracks. It's still not perfect, but when I went back and listened to the first version I uploaded, that one sounds like a disaster to me now

Here's the newest one:



Thanks!

[jordanneke]

The width of the pads is much better. Maybe I would re-introduce just a little bit more of the low end, as they sound a little 'thin'.

The percussion is like a billion percent better. Well done.

But now the low end needs some serious work. It sounds like you drastically high passed the kick and the bass, now they have no impact at all. What did you do?

One of the best things that helped my low end was the vst - Crossover. That way you can side chain only the lowest frequencies of the bass to the kick.

[Val Endrada]

What did you do?

I think I exhausted my hearing by working too loud for too long. Also I went totally overboard with the plug-ins and "smart tricks". Very unprofessional, I know - and I agree with your comments about the low end needing some serious work.

The idea of splitting the bass line in two with a crossover is brilliant (many thanks!). I tried installing the RS-MET "Crossover" VST (I assume that's the one you meant), but I couldn't get it to work with Ableton. Probably because I'm using a 64 bit PC (RS-MET doesn't specify whether it's 32 or 64bit on his homepage).

So I tried building one with an Ableton "audio effects rack" instead, using 2 "EQ Eight" on separate chains - one with a 48dB/octave High cut and one with a 48dB/octave Low cut (both devices set to "oversampling")- and then assigned the frequency controls of both cuts to the same macro control, so I can adjust the cut-off point on a single knob. This then allowed me to side-chain the low end of the bassline, like you suggested. And it works surprisingly well!

I deleted every plug-in I had on the low end, and started from scratch again - beginning with my new homebuilt crossover rack. After some more work I used an old Basic Channel track for comparison/reference (adding some new subtle highs and re-tuning one of the kicks accordingly). This will be the 4th version now, and I'm beginning to feel like I'm spamming. I'm very grateful for everyone's suggestions though!

Here's the latest (hopefully final) version:



Thanks!

[jordanneke]

It's pretty difficult to build your own multiband processing. I tried exactly that a few years ago, but then Void explained that you'll introduce all sorts of phasing issues. Hence the use of a dedicated vst.

The actual thread should be searchable, but it was a few years ago.

I can listen to your track when I get home.

[Val Endrada]

I already went down a "phase issues with digital crossovers" Youtube rabbit-hole

For mastering processes, where you might split a full mix into separate bands in order to do different processing on each band, it might sometimes be justified. You would have to be just as careful selecting what you use for this further processing, though, since plug-in effects generally seem to cause changes to the phase of the signal (unless otherwise specified).

In this case, where I'm using it on a single track, with different stock plug-ins on each band, the phase issues caused by the added effects are most likely messing much harder with the phase between the bands than the split itself. In the end I decided, that I'd simply use it, if I thought it sounded OK.

That said, when you do band splitting like this, it's probably wise to be cautious, remember to check mono comparability etc.

The pads disappear in mono btw - I just noticed. Goddammit

[jordanneke]

There is still a central issue between the kick and the bass.

The kick totally dissapears into the bass. The bass has some higher frqs and also quite a lot of sub. The kick is totally ineffective. I'm not too sure what is making up the lows, as in how many tracks, or if there is delays going on.

Judging by the start, the bass just by itself occupies nearly all of the lows, so either the kick completely ducks all of the low end (meaning there will not be too much dynamics), or it disappears. On closer listening at lower volume there isn't much dynamics in the lows. Turn the volume right down, and the bass/ highs and the pads are what I can hear, not the kick.

Generally, the kick should punch through the mix. And I say 'generally'. I think I'd start with a much punchier kick.

Can you tell me how you made the bass?

[Val Endrada]

pads are what I can hear, not the kick.

Generally, the kick should punch through the mix. And I say 'generally'. I think I'd start with a much punchier kick.

Can you tell me how you made the bass?

First of all, thank you for taking the time to listen (again) and comment!

I took your suggestion and have exchanged the main kick sound for a (punchier) sample. Added some more saturation and changed overall compressor/limiter settings for more headroom (so I could turn up as well). It's getting a bit over-saturated now, perhaps, but at least you can now clearly hear the kick (I hope).

Oh, and I solved the problem of the stereo pads disappearing in mono by reversing the phase of the right side signal on the channel.

The bass was made by twiddling the knobs of a single tom/drum on an analogue drum machine, with the signal running through a filter/distortion unit, a compressor and finally a delay pedal, recorded directly into a sound-card input (Vermona DRM1, Sherman Filterbank, RNLA7239 and a Boss DD-500).

I'm kind of struggling with the loudness of modern techno kick drums, but I've tried pushing it a bit further here (although still without going completely bonkers). In any case, I think I ned to give this one a rest now and move on to something new. Thanks.

Here goes:

[jordanneke]

The kick sounds better.

I think it was the delay on the bass which made the whole thing a bit messy. Perhaps I would try equing the bass before got compressed, but definitely before the eq, so only the top of the bass was delayed, and not the whole signal.

But I will stress that others know much more than me, so perhaps I'm talking rubbish.

[Val Endrada]

The kick sounds better.

I think it was the delay on the bass which made the whole thing a bit messy. Perhaps I would try equing the bass before got compressed, but definitely before the eq, so only the top of the bass was delayed, and not the whole signal.

But I will stress that others know much more than me, so perhaps I'm talking rubbish.

No, I think it makes good sense.

As far as I remember, I tried using the Boss pedal's built in hi pass filter for the delays, but I think it was just too subtle.

hmm..

One thing I've noticed during these revisions, is that I seem to have developed a tendency to understeer when mixing (make too weak/insufficient adjustments). I sort of know what I'm doing, but often fail to make decisive adjustments in spite of it. I think this is potentially a very valuable insight, so thank you for your perceverance in pointing out the problems!

I tried comparing the latest version to some of Legowelt's mixes from his "Teac Life" album, which I really like, - and even though it doesn't sound like a Legowelt track, the overall elements of the mix are pretty close - which made me happy!

Splitting and EQ-ing/filtering a bass signal of this type, before effects, is a good idea. It should be relatively easy to do with my existing outboard equipment. In fact I think I'll just go ahead and try it out:) Thanks.

[speen]

I really like the track, really entertaining.

the hat programming is nice, driving the track and the vocal snippets (?) are a good choice. The only comment I have is that I got a bit tired of the high pad sound. It would maybe be more effective if that would be filtered/faded out during the track for a few bars.