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Punxsutawney Phil's Shadow _ Contains 'A Best Of..' Selection Of Frequently Discussed Topics From THE HOLE
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gabe DM
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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by gabe DM »

great words from both of you... I feel now the power of knowledge. :D

seriously.

but sticking on the topic: how do you treat the spatialisation on kk, is it correct to leave it mono and dry? I know some rev can be used with usefull and smart results... but the mono is still a must....uh?!

"analyze & listen till its getting the right feel THEN start processing to enhance that feeling" is a great sentence 8-)

damn...think about all that tweacking in creating the kk and then letting it go... but I know you guys are absolutely right... I totally try "to shape a diamond from granite". thanks again for sharing tips and techniques.
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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by Mattias »

Since you ask, in 100% of all cases I keep my kick & low-end sounds in mono from 0-150~ Hz or so. It just doesn't work with a stereoized bass in a club / hall / venue, or anywhere else in fact. So yeah you're right of-course. The mid / hi-mid / top is always ok to widen a bit in the stereo spectrum. Moderately.

I heard shitloads of tracks being released today where the spatial spectrum is totally off though, low end in stereo and phase errors all over. I always wonder if the guys who made tracks like that never play their own stuff out? A major phase error in the low-end is a scary experience on a dance-floor.
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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by gabe DM »

good to know I got that right :)

but you know, I myself don't get lots of chanches to play the tracks on regular pa systems... so it's all good to know, so to make not a bad impression in case I, or somone else, would play my tracks on huge wall of speakers.

for monoing the lows: is it correct to shape out the lows at the right freq with a high pass filter set on side (mid/side)

thanks you ;)
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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by Faust »

Actually, my opinion differs on that subject.. I do often play with the stereo field of low end sounds, but the music I write is less and less aimed towards any dance-floor. I would even pan kick drums 100% left and right if it worked (and I have done this. There is no rule that can not be broken.

Reverb can also be used if wanted.

If your interested in an example of a track where I have panned bass drums hard left and right > http://soundcloud.com/casual_violence/c ... expression

As for the heart ache of letting a sound go that you have worked for hours on - Just bounce/render it down into a folder and use it on another project.

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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by Faust »

If you are engineering a track for a club though, yes, best keep things mono maybe.

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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by Mslwte »

i always thought that the main reason for monoing basses/bass sounds was for the purpose of cutting vinyl. as stereo bass would break the cutter.

also is a proper club system mono'd? or am i dreaming shit again lol
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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by Faust »

you're correct on both accounts

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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by gabe DM »

@Mslwte

yes both: for the vinyl cut cause the niddle will jump from the track if too wide (and basses occupy more spaces phisically)
but also I know PA maybe in mono (at least some) so you'll loose clashing pahses when they monoize.
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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by Críoch »

Mega Topic People! :)
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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by Lost to the Void »

ICN wrote:I use Steves method as I got to see/hear it in the flesh & it sounds perfect to me :)

Its a lot gentler than the compression that I was using before & I'm happier with it as a result. I think that I use compression to much - or have done in the past. I know I was sidechaining everything out of it without thinking. I dont like that sound (on everything). It was just a bad habit tbh..

Mattias - I'm interested in the whole using dist / sat on sounds over compression. I've been messing about with using gentle distortion at the end of a chain to bring the levels up instead of getting a comp to do it (like I usually do).

Is this essentially what you do? It just seems to round it a bit - but not clip or destroy it. I like it & it doesnt seem to deaden stuff as quick as compression.
When you use saturation like compression, it is essentially compression with a hard ratio.
Good compressors should have exactly the opposite of deadening.
a good compressor has a very open sound.
such as vertigo vsc1

Compression is important in production for controlling the low end, which is why it is good on kicks, it helps control them.

Obviously not necessary in all circumstances, but without is, you will get deceptive levels on your meters and may end up with some trouble come mastering.

Transient designers are probably more problematic in a mix if used wrong than a compressor.

When I master tracks that have bad over zealous use of transient designers it generally causes me more ache than compression, they can add a horrible snap to the mix that can be like bad clipping.
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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by Lost to the Void »

Bass mono stories.

Well, really, I wouldnt worry about your bass beng in mono too much.
Obviously very low frequencies don't work in stereo, when the wavelength is greater than the distance between your ears it is very hard for your brain to translate this into stereo, which is why bass is omni directional.

I had a fairly lengthy conversation about bass in vinyl terms with Air studios Matt Colton a few years back, who I would argue is about the best in the biz when it comes to cutting vinyl, as I was cutting a tune with some really wacky bass, and even though I had premastered and mono'd the very lows, it wasn't that necessary. We went into the very technical side, and I learned a lot that I apply myself in mastering and production.

Essentially, unless you are going super crazy, don't worry.
A good mastering engineer will be able to deal with any issues that might arise in this respect, but if you really must, just go mono from 90hz down.

If you are producing for digital then it is even less of an issue, so don't worry too much again.
Phase can be an issue of course, but it is so easy correct in this digital age.

The issue of clubs even running rigs in stereo is a whole other kettle of fish.


As for verb on kicks, yeah sure, I have actually started to use verb a fair bit on my more dubsteppy hybrid techno, to get a grainy, roomy boom to the kicks, it works lovely, just be careful to eq the reverb so it doesnt muddy the mix too much.

I use a little post verb compression on the kicks too sometimes, just a touch, to glue the verb to the kick. It gives a nice lo-fi loose boom to the kicks that the world of bass music is so fond of at the moment.
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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by Mattias »

Lost to the Void wrote:
ICN wrote:I use Steves method as I got to see/hear it in the flesh & it sounds perfect to me :)

Its a lot gentler than the compression that I was using before & I'm happier with it as a result. I think that I use compression to much - or have done in the past. I know I was sidechaining everything out of it without thinking. I dont like that sound (on everything). It was just a bad habit tbh..

Mattias - I'm interested in the whole using dist / sat on sounds over compression. I've been messing about with using gentle distortion at the end of a chain to bring the levels up instead of getting a comp to do it (like I usually do).

Is this essentially what you do? It just seems to round it a bit - but not clip or destroy it. I like it & it doesnt seem to deaden stuff as quick as compression.
When you use saturation like compression, it is essentially compression with a hard ratio.
Good compressors should have exactly the opposite of deadening.
a good compressor has a very open sound.
such as vertigo vsc1

Compression is important in production for controlling the low end, which is why it is good on kicks, it helps control them.

Obviously not necessary in all circumstances, but without is, you will get deceptive levels on your meters and may end up with some trouble come mastering.

Transient designers are probably more problematic in a mix if used wrong than a compressor.

When I master tracks that have bad over zealous use of transient designers it generally causes me more ache than compression, they can add a horrible snap to the mix that can be like bad clipping.
This is worth to point out for newer producers. Especially about too much attack on Transient Designers. But I really dont agree with compressors being important in production to control kicks. Maybe in a start up stage but the more experience one gets there are so many other ways to control kicks. Good & open compression is not something everyone can afford and so many today are using over-processed commercial sample libraries where the sounds are both limited & compressed to pieces and adding extra compression to that it just insane. I assume you're talking about clean sources.

To continue with the mono bass thing; as someone here pointed rules are meant to be broken. But for music meant to be played in a club on a big rig it's essential to keep the kick in the middle. Image a kick which is panned to the left and you play it, half the dance-floor stops and wonders what the hell is going on.

Also if music is being 100% made to be played with a digital medium I still wouldn't like to have my low end in stereo, I wouldn't want techno to sound like modern RnB or pop music. Phase error or none, mastering or gear (sometimes) in a club can fix lots of it its still a bad idea to just ignore any knowledge about stuff like this and mix down stuff "wrong" instead of learning the general rules first, one can apply and exploit the "wrongs" later.

As for clubs running rigs in stereo, most proper rigs installed in clubs are calibrated in a mono / stereo 2-way system where the top & bass are separated by a cross-over (often set at 60-120~ Hz depending on music content but club music is pumping so closer to 120Hz then 60 in this case) in a processor (yeah there's DSP with cross-over for active speakers today but for big systems active speakers are more unusual still for a good reason) and I'd say in 95% of all cases the sub system will be in mono configuration. If not they're doing something wrong, there are tons of advantages to run a rig's sub system in mono even with today's class D-amplifiers being available.

In short, my opinion is that if one decided to use the bottom end in stereo it's ok, if it's not for dance music meant to be played in a club.
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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by core2 »

Great tips in this thread friends.

I keep everything under 180 - 200 mono, but now with what Mr. Fridell said about the x-overs; maybe i will be experimenting to keep everything mono to 150. Maybe a compromise in the middle is safer hehehe, i will see.

As for kicks I start with the release at max and attack at 0. I pull the thresh down a little and pull back the release until the kick just starts to pump or pop a little. Then increase the attack until the boom appears. Go back and adjust on the thresh until its balanced. I like to have my ratio between 2 and 4.

Keep doing this until the job is done and the bass has not evaporated from your kick. turn the comp on and off if you think its too wild and be honest with yourself. if in doubt, start again. EQ is important to tighten shit up. I dip by a few db rather than add.
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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by Mattias »

A guess would be that it's totally ok to mono the signal between 0-70 Hz or so with todays technology but I personally feel that mono a bit higher up in the register give more bite, attitude & punch. Too much stereo effect down there reminds me much about retro-modern Moog based synth music or hit list music so I personally keep stuff mono from 1-150Hz~
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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by Críoch »

Steve / Matt - Cheers for the perspective on the sat vs. compression. Cool. Thats given me the direction :)

SO much good info in this thread 8-)

_

I dont think anyone has mentioned it yet, but envelopes are ultra important too.

A big fk off sounding kick sounds fun, as does a gigantic bassy bass - but they obviously sound a lot better together - when the enevelopes are sympathetic. Not too long & not too short. I suppose thats why I like using a drum synth for my kicks as you can shorten the release to wherever & it still sounds ok.

I feel limited sometimes using a sample & changing the envelopes. Depending the sample, it either gets noisy or starts saying "change me".
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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by ste »

yeah great thread!

but there's one thing missing i thought for so long here. first step is to be confident about the source material you want to process. its a big difference if you use sampels which are alreaddy processed or samples which are just recorded from a machine like 909/808. technical dynamic processing should be used when necessary not when people tell you to use it. if there is to much dynamic then compress... if dynamic is nice why process it?

it's a different story when you want to need compression to glue things together. but then still... if source material is already heavily processed you have to handle the material with care. the more dynamic your source material has, the more freedom to process for you.

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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by Mattias »

ste wrote:yeah great thread!

but there's one thing missing i thought for so long here. first step is to be confident about the source material you want to process. its a big difference if you use sampels which are alreaddy processed or samples which are just recorded from a machine like 909/808. technical dynamic processing should be used when necessary not when people tell you to use it. if there is to much dynamic then compress... if dynamic is nice why process it?

it's a different story when you want to need compression to glue things together. but then still... if source material is already heavily processed you have to handle the material with care. the more dynamic your source material has, the more freedom to process for you.
Spot on.

Also what ICN is saying envelopes are ultra important too.
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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by Lost to the Void »

Mattias wrote:
As for clubs running rigs in stereo, most proper rigs installed in clubs are calibrated in a mono / stereo 2-way system where the top & bass are separated by a cross-over (often set at 60-120~ Hz depending on music content but club music is pumping so closer to 120Hz then 60 in this case) in a processor (yeah there's DSP with cross-over for active speakers today but for big systems active speakers are more unusual still for a good reason) and I'd say in 95% of all cases the sub system will be in mono configuration. If not they're doing something wrong, there are tons of advantages to run a rig's sub system in mono even with today's class D-amplifiers being available.
Oh man, the problem is most "proper" rigs in clubs are rarely run properly, or conventionally or sensibly.

I`m a total rig snob, I ran rigs for years at my start in the techno scene, and went on to work as an engineer for a fairly large rig hire/install company in london, and the stories I can tell.

Low paid, uninterested club soundmen who lock the limiters way too low leading to aweful distortion, dropouts etc, lock the crossovers and don`t change them when cabinets are changed, who set the rigs up generically and pop in once a week to basically make sure nothing has caught fire.
Ancient processing, cheap processing, amps with blown rails, total mono, bridged amps, phase issues, terrible placement etc etc etc
Rigs run 2 way, 3 way.......

I would say most club rigs are run pretty badly. It is a rare pleasure to play on one that is well setup, clear, with adequate, properly tuned bass with adequate headroom.

I always try to get my hands on the rig amp/process in a club I am playing at if it doesn`t sound right, and the shit I see sometimes when I am allowed is just woeful.

It is a real shock so many rigs are still run in mono, truly shocking in this day.

This is another reason why compression helps and is used in mastering, it aids in a better translation.


Ideally everyone would be working to the K scale (something I have attempted to help campaign for in my own techno mastering business, to little success) and techno would be produced to K20 or K14 and mastered to K12. This would vastly reduce the need for compression, but it requires a huge change of mindset for the entire industry.

Making your techno music overly dynamic will lead to the mastering engineer making more of the dynamic decisions on your material than you might be happy with, as much as I try to fight the cause for higher fidelity, it is fairly futile, in techno at least.
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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by Lost to the Void »

To explain to those who are a little shakey on compression.

The reason it is so handy for the low end is that compression is a great way of reducing dynamic changes within material (which isn`t always a bad thing)

Bass on a big soundsystem reacts in an exponential way. So minor dynamic changes in bass levels that might sound ok on your studio monitoring system, could have huge impacts on your groove when put onto a club soundsystem as those changes are much more noticable, especially down low where you can really feel the air moving.

This can suck the life out of a groove, or throw it totally off from what you intend.

So compression on your lows can help smooth out some of these changes.
Of course it is also great to utilise big energy changes to dramatic effect, but when building a groove, too much drama can steal focus.

I think the point is, understand it`s uses and apply when appropriate, not by default.
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Re: Techno Kicks

Post by ste »

thats a clever way to think about the dynamic issues. i would love to listen to music with at least k20 all day. it's much more enjoyable but then - as you said - many people who produce music with high dynamics get the most trashy sounding results after mastering. there are 2 reasons for that... bad mastering engineers (who aren't mastering engineers at all but work as such for small labels) and good mastering engineers under pressure ;) labels who treat them bad cause they want them to make everything loud as shit.

so in the end techno will be flat. and if someone fucks up all the nice dynamics then it's always better to do it yourself. you can decide where you want the dynamic and where not. you can edit after compression and you can automate things with stems to keep transitions cool.

one simple but effective way to feel if more dynamic processing is appropriate is testing everything in the mix. and doenst make much sense to compress a kickdrum without listening to the context. is simple but one of the general misunderstandings with beginners. i know a lot of poeple who compress everything and proudly solo the tracks/busses and show how wonderfully full and rich and loud it is. then un-solo and the enthusiasm is gone.


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