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Lost to the Void
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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by Lost to the Void »

mjudge wrote:Okay, I think I'm getting it. With the auto-makeup gain setting on the Ableton Live Compressor I don't seem to get the expected result, so maybe I'm better of doing it manually.
I was using the ableton compressor with autogain on whilst writing the guide, so you are doing something wrong as it works fine.
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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by ARiFF »

Great post Steve, informative & well explained. It's good to hear someone with the experience explain it like this.

I myself am not using compression on a kick a lot, it happens but as you wrote before only on certain occasions. If i do, its usually just a tadd bit only to get the sound compacted enough for the kick to sit tightly on his position in the mix.

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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by ericfraser »

Great post, I was actually just going to post about this. The main struggle for myself is to have to kick audible within the mix without having to boost it's relative volume level compared to the other sounds. A lot of the time the higher frequencies and clickyness are needed to keep the kick audible but the high end on the percs/leads/pads mask this. What's the best way to approach this problem. I'm sure you guys know exactly why the kick is audible in the first part of the track when sounds are building up but then disappears by the mid point of the track when everything is full steam. How do you keep to kick relatively noticeable when you start layering everything upon it? The best example I can think of is Jonas Kopp and what I call the Argentinean bass kick. Loud and audible (usually 909 derived) but when you crank your speakers it doesn't clip your speakers and the mix as whole rises uniformly.

Another questions I had is when you're hearing these 'constant' bass tracks (think Drumcell mixes), is this pretty much all a bassline compressed to f*ck with a slappy clicky kick thrown overtop. What techniques are going on here?

These questions may seem elementary to most of you but I am still struggling with this while the rest of my production abilities are improving :S.

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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by mjudge »

ericfraser wrote:Great post, I was actually just going to post about this. The main struggle for myself is to have to kick audible within the mix without having to boost it's relative volume level compared to the other sounds. A lot of the time the higher frequencies and clickyness are needed to keep the kick audible but the high end on the percs/leads/pads mask this. What's the best way to approach this problem. I'm sure you guys know exactly why the kick is audible in the first part of the track when sounds are building up but then disappears by the mid point of the track when everything is full steam. How do you keep to kick relatively noticeable when you start layering everything upon it? The best example I can think of is Jonas Kopp and what I call the Argentinean bass kick. Loud and audible (usually 909 derived) but when you crank your speakers it doesn't clip your speakers and the mix as whole rises uniformly.

Another questions I had is when you're hearing these 'constant' bass tracks (think Drumcell mixes), is this pretty much all a bassline compressed to f*ck with a slappy clicky kick thrown overtop. What techniques are going on here?

These questions may seem elementary to most of you but I am still struggling with this while the rest of my production abilities are improving :S.
Here's my (far from expert) thinking on the first question:

1. Don't have other instruments playing while the kick is playing if they interfere with it;
2. Use eq to cut frequencies in other tracks that are interfering with important frequencies in the kick;
3. Pan tracks that occupy the kick's click frequencies to the sides away from the kick; or
4. Send every track but the kick to a separate track and sidechain compress that track so that everything ducks the kick.

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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by ericfraser »

Seems like a pretty simple solution..especially the panning bit which may be helpful. I guess sidechain everything to the kick would make sense although in moderation.

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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by Ctrls »

ericfraser wrote:The main struggle for myself is to have to kick audible within the mix without having to boost it's relative volume level compared to the other sounds. A lot of the time the higher frequencies and clickyness are needed to keep the kick audible but the high end on the percs/leads/pads mask this. What's the best way to approach this problem.
i know this is an annoying answer but find a kick that works. one of the best things i learned from working with lasse buhl (who has a more intuitive approach then me) on northern structures was to simply go through a million sounds until you find one that sits with what you've got. the right source sounds are mega important, the rest is mixdown depth which comes with good separation which in turn not only gives you clarity but also depth. there's no easy way to achieve this that i found except to work hard. sidechaining can help but you can get there without it.

as for rumbly bassy tunes the trick is to make your bass sound like its part of the kick tail. there's a million ways of doing it, you can layer pitched down toms and bongos to weird smashed up fm basses or have the kick tail sweep back up.

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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by Mattias »

Ctrls wrote:
ericfraser wrote:The main struggle for myself is to have to kick audible within the mix without having to boost it's relative volume level compared to the other sounds. A lot of the time the higher frequencies and clickyness are needed to keep the kick audible but the high end on the percs/leads/pads mask this. What's the best way to approach this problem.
i know this is an annoying answer but find a kick that works. one of the best things i learned from working with lasse buhl (who has a more intuitive approach then me) on northern structures was to simply go through a million sounds until you find one that sits with what you've got.
True this mate, I think people struggle way more then they have to with a sound that isn't "right" and works right away.
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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by ericfraser »

Thanks for the tips guys. Sometimes the answer is pretty obvious. Ya I also have done a bunch of experimenting with kick-pitchedtom-croppedreversed kick etc.

I guess my own track here would be a good example:

1. I could have to cut more sub
2. The kick could've been more snappy/punchy for this type track
3. The decay on the kick for this type track is probably a bit much

I do prefer dub type kicks more but I guess its about finding that balance.

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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by Lost to the Void »

Ctrls wrote: i know this is an annoying answer but find a kick that works. one of the best things i learned from working with lasse buhl (who has a more intuitive approach then me) on northern structures was to simply go through a million sounds until you find one that sits with what you've got.
I have said for a long time, the best type of EQ is no EQ. EQ by choosing the right sounds to fit in the right places is the mark of an accomplished producer.
I always reference the way an orchestra works, when teaching this way of thinking to people.
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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by Críoch »

Agree with the orchestra analogy.. When I was trying to figure EQ'ing etc.. out first.. I had a eureka moment when I realised that.
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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by loopdon »

This is a nice guide.

What has helped me tremendously is working with a wave-editor.
Doing manual compression etc. Getting a visual understanding of what's going on
and being more able to connect the visual aspect with the sound aspect.

Audacity in my case. And smexescope. Also listening and listening and....
What i have also done is run a high pass over an entire folder of kicks to yield
a transient folder (doesn't have to be kicks). This can be skipped through when
you have a nice kick and bass relationship going and want that little icing on top.
You will probably want to to fade-in/low pass the original kick to accommodate for
the extra high-end energy the transient brings.

This has helped me understand stuff better.

It's great to vibe it out, though, i just think you have to strike a balance between
nerd-ism and feel, if that makes sense? And with experience vibeing will undoubtedly
be different than before you have any experience or much. Things that look seemingly
effortless can have afforded quite a lot of work beforehand.

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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by loopdon »

I could do a little tutorial on how to paste together kickdrums and resynth tuned
booms for sampled kicks etc. Is there any interest? I'd would do it with Audacity, which is free.
What would you lot like to see that you don't know about kicks and i might know?

I hate to see my rambles being the last thing i see in threads, i really do.

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Post by Críoch »

Hey Martin,

I for one would love to see that. I've never worked in a wave editor that way. Its always great to see how other people work. The geeks say yes! Haha

you can UL the pic's as attachments directly here on subsekt.. So now hosting bullshit.

Great idea man!
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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by loopdon »

Thanks for the encouragement, John!

The unhealthy (!) amount of time i have spent ripping apart kickdrums in
Audacity must be of some use. It's all been done before, no doubt.
But the nerd in me would have loved to see that back then and the nerd
in me still enjoys stuff like that so i will try me best. What got me started
on this was a little tutorial by SonicAcademy. It was a revelation back then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S12PDjOTUnk

Not long ago, i watched this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6wQf285UW8

Also in a similar vein:

http://audio.tutsplus.com/tutorials/pro ... fl-studio/

Audio Tuts, btw, is a site i have learnt a lot from and i love the clean layout.

I have some secret weapons, also, which could be helpful.
Extracting kicks is just a start. I shall try and make something.

Anybody got a track they can't manage to get a clean kick out of?
I could try and use that for my tut.

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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by loopdon »

Had some bad news, today. Generally going through
a highly stressful period, right now.

This means that the tutorial will have to wait.
I reckon the links i posted should do the job, though.

Must fix my life up, firstly.
I'll try and help with the cleanup
of kickdrums etc. if anyone contacts me via pm.

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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by Críoch »

Fuck man.. sorry to hear that. Hope you get on top of it soon!
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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by Adverse Event »

Cheers for that Steve - interesting

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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by daniaan »

This has been a nice read. Thanks for all the input guys!

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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by SigEnt »

Fantastic read, very helpful. Big thanks.

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Re: Kick Compression Guide

Post by kodebreakerpaul »

Great post!

Would also add that you can change the tonality of a compressed kick drum significantly by putting it through a limiter after the compressor. I use the LA2A sometimes for this and it does add a considerable thwack to the kick drum - albeit at a loss of some of the characteristics of the compressed kick drum sound.


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