Sub Bass Mixing

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intrusav
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Re: Sub Frequencies question

Post by intrusav »

Mattias wrote:
People set their filters on "advice" frequencies all over their tracks, at the same frequencies on all tracks, that can build up a massive resonance when combined over a full mix just above the set frequencies.
Guilty of the HPF use on most elements.
Never even considered the resonance side of things in a full track, although the cut-off frequencies would generally vary across each element.
One thing I find myself doing is high passing a kick, say around 60-90 Hz, and jacking up the resonance to bring out the low end.
I have a very bad habit of overdoing the bass end of things and losing perspective with it :D

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Mattias
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Re: Sub Frequencies question

Post by Mattias »

That's the sort of thing I mean ;) Doing it without asking yourself why you do it.
Using the resonance as an effect to bump up kicks or whatever always been a true favorite for many, a valid way to use HFP, although 60-90hz sounds much too high eh?

I blame ultra sterile plastic minimal stuff on HPF obsession!
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Lost to the Void
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Re: Sub Frequencies question

Post by Lost to the Void »

Let me put it another way.
I rarely have phase issues to deal with in mastering, and I master everything from classical to gabba.
If you are mastering a lot of live stuff there will be low cuts everywhere, the mics the desk... Still rare to have either phase correlation, or pre-ringing issues.

It really isn't that much of a problem.

The only thing that could be considered a potential problem is the amount of EQs now with really hard curves available to them on the low cut IF people start using them a lot.
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Mattias
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Re: Sub Frequencies question

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No man you misunderstand me, its not that type of phase issue problem or out of phase issues, its a problem when they start to apply the filters all over and the phase starts change things to their mixdowns and they dont understand what happens to the audio and then try to remedy the effect when they shouldn't have applied it to begin with. I reckon to get real crazy phasing you need to use 96db/oct filters in huge amounts. It's pretty much the same with the example of "why dont I get phat bass when I turned the bass up on the kick and then on the bass?" or "why does my hihats disappear when I boost phat bass on my bassdrum?"
Lost to the Void wrote:Let me put it another way.
I rarely have phase issues to deal with in mastering, and I master everything from classical to gabba.
If you are mastering a lot of live stuff there will be low cuts everywhere, the mics the desk... Still rare to have either phase correlation, or pre-ringing issues.
Let me put it in this way; its not mastering related, its production related. The producers sits there and wonders hwy their stuff suddenly feels thin or narrow etc. From a production point of view, not mastering.
Last edited by Mattias on Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sub Frequencies question

Post by intrusav »

...but I read that 77.123 Hz is the magic frequency for all kicks!!

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Lost to the Void
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Re: Sub Frequencies question

Post by Lost to the Void »

Mattias wrote:No man you misunderstand me, its not that type of phase issue problem or out of phase issues, its a problem when they start to apply the filters all over and the phase starts change things to their mixdowns and they dont understand what happens to the audio and then try to remedy the effect when they shouldn't have applied it to begin with. I reckon to get real crazy phasing you need to use 96db/oct filters in huge amounts. It's pretty much the same with the example of "why dont I get phat bass when I turned the bass up on the kick and then on the bass?" or "why does my hihats disappear when I boost phat bass on my bassdrum?"
Lost to the Void wrote:Let me put it another way.
I rarely have phase issues to deal with in mastering, and I master everything from classical to gabba.
If you are mastering a lot of live stuff there will be low cuts everywhere, the mics the desk... Still rare to have either phase correlation, or pre-ringing issues.
Let me put it in this way; its not mastering related, its production related. The producers sits there and wonders hwy their stuff suddenly feels thin or narrow etc. From a production point of view, not mastering.
You can have that problem with any eq applied incorrectly, or with poor choice of sound though. Low shelf, low cut, smile curve, over EQing is a general mix problem that applies across the board.

the best EQ is no EQ at all.
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Re: Sub Frequencies question

Post by Mattias »

Of course, very true that! And in this case it was with the crazy of using HPF.

Also, late happy birthday you ol Spanish resort dweller ;)
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Re: Sub Frequencies question

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Mattias wrote:
Planar wrote:Given both your opinions I think it's fair to carry on using them, but be aware if you've lots of low end elements and high passes to control them?
How low / how much? A first or second order low-shelve set at say 40hz with a 3-5dB cut can solve alot. Same thing with a a 3-4dB cut bell with a Q of 1~set at say 20hz. Hell, many times even just lowering the source of the bass is the way to go!
Sorry, it was a general question. More and more I try to synthesise my stuff to sit in specific frequencies so I don't have to make drastic EQ changes. I do highpass my subs at around 30Hz, and my kick will have a highpass much higher at 60+ Hz (talking about my DnB here). All my other hpf's will be spread around the frequency spectrum and generally 6db slopes if I can help it.

So my general question was this is only an issue if you're high passing elements at around the same cutoff point? So generally don't worry, but do bear in mind that in certain circumstances it can cause issues.

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Re: Sub Frequencies question

Post by Lost to the Void »

Planar wrote:
Mattias wrote:
Planar wrote:Given both your opinions I think it's fair to carry on using them, but be aware if you've lots of low end elements and high passes to control them?
How low / how much? A first or second order low-shelve set at say 40hz with a 3-5dB cut can solve alot. Same thing with a a 3-4dB cut bell with a Q of 1~set at say 20hz. Hell, many times even just lowering the source of the bass is the way to go!
Sorry, it was a general question. More and more I try to synthesise my stuff to sit in specific frequencies so I don't have to make drastic EQ changes. I do highpass my subs at around 30Hz, and my kick will have a highpass much higher at 60+ Hz (talking about my DnB here). All my other hpf's will be spread around the frequency spectrum and generally 6db slopes if I can help it.

So my general question was this is only an issue if you're high passing elements at around the same cutoff point? So generally don't worry, but do bear in mind that in certain circumstances it can cause issues.
Any EQ is a problem if it is additive across a number of tracks. Yes.

The point I am making really is don't worry too much..
Mixing should be a flowing, intuitive process.

Everything should be natural, and leaps to more clinical processes should only be taken when more gentle processes are ineffective.

EQ first by sound choice and placement.
Then gentle EQ.
Then more clinical EQ.

Sometimes the first stage is enough, sometimes stage 3 is needed before things work.

Don't get caught up too much in biblical stone tablet thinking. "I must not do this. I must always do his"

Use your ears, if it sounds wrong then it is wrong.
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Mattias
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Re: Sub Frequencies question

Post by Mattias »

Yeah Steve got it.

Try to do the bell / shelve route instead especially on the kick if you HPF at 60+hz, maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised. Same with everything else. Many times this can give more "meat" in the bottom.

And as Steve already said "Don't get caught up too much in biblical stone tablet thinking." and since HPF have become just that it's good to challenging the default ways of doing things when developing music.
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Re: Sub Frequencies question

Post by Lost to the Void »

Here is a great little article on low cuts, and why they are a commonly used and common feature on mixing desks.

http://www.realtimeaudio.ca/blog/the-lo ... oes-it-do/
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Re: Sub Frequencies question

Post by Mattias »

For PA / gig use, sure.
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Re: Sub Frequencies question

Post by ross-alexander »

I seem to remember steve posting something (maybe in his home mastering topic) about how frequencies should be spread across the spectrum, I'd also have a look at that chart thats knocking about of where certain instruments sit in the frequency spectrum (if anyone knows it and can attach it it may be useful here?). Sound selection is the key and looking at that curve your lows, low mids and right up to where that dip happens are definitely a problem area. Maybe spend some time analysing where certain zones and notes sit will help you to balance out the top half of the spectrum. On a pa system that looks like it will sound like a wall of lows. I'm no expert I find my ears over the last 5 or six years have just incrementally improved the more mixes I have made. I know you should use your ears really but there's certainly value in visual and a / b referencing if you are in a not ideal room or whatever.

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Re: Sub Frequencies question

Post by surface »

There was this one from FM:

Image

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Re: Sub Frequencies question

Post by Lost to the Void »

Although old Skool, it's always a good idea to mono your low end parts. Generally speaking from 180-200 down will vastly solidify your low end (and help for vinyl cuts).
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Re: Sub Frequencies question

Post by Markus Wolf »

LuigiTozzii wrote:Hey guys, I'm always very worried about the very low frequencies, where and how to cut them in the right way.
Actually I am working on something new, a live project, and focusing it on being slightly more dancefloor oriented than my previous works.
For doing it I know I need to work on my low end more and I tend to end up with spectrums like this one I have attached, is that completely out of the place (too many subs) or is it fine?
let me know what you think!

http://imageshack.com/a/img661/2889/y7WANq.png
more than one way to skin a cat but... kick can be subby and bassline up an octave, sidechaining, or youre sub bass can be between kicks or subby bassline and kick up an octave. The muddiness is from clashing frequencies. EQ can help in some instances. If you know for example that you want to have a bassline with lots of sub then youre going to have to find a kick that is not subby otherwise mud will ensue,

cheers

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Re: Sub Frequencies question

Post by Lost to the Void »

I think we have established that already.
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Re: Sub Frequencies question

Post by rktic »

To add a bit more complexity but also fun & character to this, the impact of a HPF on bass material vastly varies with the filter curve response. I'm using pretty steep HPF filters to shape my kicks and add some mojo. Very often removing lots of clutter from the low end actually sounds like boosting while getting some headroom. Psychoacoustics ftw.

You should keep an eye on the phase correlation meter though. If you wanna be 100% sure about your phase, put a lpf on the master at around 200 hz so the rest of the spectrum isn't biasing the correlation meters readout.

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Cut frequencies under 40Hz ?

Post by Tony »

Hello,

I read that it's "good" the cut the frequencies under 40 Hz, what do you think about it ?

Do you apply a low pass filter for all the frequencies under 40 Hz ? :) (For the Kick & Bass)

You apply the filter on each track or only on the master ?

Thanks all and sorry if my english is not perfect, unfortunately, i'm french :mrgreen:

Best,

Tony :)
English is not my first language. So, sorry if i don't speak perfectly.
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Re: Cut frequencies under 40Hz ?

Post by msl »

Generally yeah its quite common and safe to cut everything below 30z its just rumble mostly, but you need to use your ears and see what sounds good basically. Some times quite high cuts sound great 200,300,500, but also if you overdo it and take away too much low end from everything the mix will sound weak and animeic.

I usually cut 150hz from everything that is not playing a role in the low end, so hi-hats, snare, percussion, hi synths etc.

For the low end stuff I use my ears and only cut as little as needed. For kick I usually leave it as is and don't do any cut, I'll cut the bass as needed so it fits with the kick.

At the mastering stage my ME will do an overall cut to the mix, I lever that to him to decide.


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