subsekt

Well, I was scrolling through The Hole and I think didn't saw a thread about arranging a track. I think my biggest problem with producing a track is trying to imagine it as whole song and to think of effective breaks and drops and to find best place for them as well making all those rhythm patterns sound good together and find best way to make them work one after another in the track. And I usually get carried away by tweaking everything around and making sounds fit loops and I'm pretty much exhausted when I get to point of making arrangement. Any thoughts on this? How do you get along with arranging a song and what are your techniques?

In the last works I'm making I started to work direcly in the arrangement view,I create like 4/5 basic loop clips and then go straight to the arrangement and start adding elements directly thinking on how the progression of the track will be.It helped me a lot instead of making 15 clips and then losing much time wondering how to put them together...

I used to be a kick and bass kinda guy whenever I started trying to arrange something. I was always disappointed. Sounded too bare. It seemed unnatural bringing in other stuff. I've decided that its better to start with some kind of nearly full type loop.. or use kicks that have a bit of texture / slight rhythm to them. Fills in the gaps.

After that its a cross between blocking out 5 to 6 mins and subtracting things.. and doing a bit of live passes or scene jamming.

I tend to just have a big block and take little bits out here and there by automating volume, try to subtly automate any effects throughout the track too so that its not too boring, im still learning when it comes to arrangement, i used to always have a break down or 2 but always struggled with how to approach a break, especially the lead up to one, my tracks just seemed to lose momentum because of the breakdown. Now they are usually just 5/6 mins of a block

The arrangement can be anything you like. Personally I dont look at arrangement from a dj point of view because I find it boring to use the same formula every time I make a track. What I do is get a decent loop together and literally throw stuff into the arrangement view in ableton. Then I'll edit and tweak sections until I get them to sound the way I want. I can take weeks of tweaking sometimes. Just force yourself into it. I used to have a real issue with it but now I've made loads of tracks with all sorts of different styles of arrangement and I don't think about it anymore.

The key to the arrangement completed is to have a decent initial loop that I can have playing continuously without getting feed up with it. If I do get fed up with it then ill save it and go back to it another time.

Just finish tracks even if you think they are rubbish. The more you do something the better you will get!

brian wrote:I tend to just have a big block and take little bits out here and there by automating volume, try to subtly automate any effects throughout the track too so that its not too boring, im still learning when it comes to arrangement, i used to always have a break down or 2 but always struggled with how to approach a break, especially the lead up to one, my tracks just seemed to lose momentum because of the breakdown. Now they are usually just 5/6 mins of a block

I actually arrange around my main break as I'll have most of my main elements playing straight after it and I can concentrate on the build up to the break before it. Get that 1/2 mins of the tracks done and the rest is easy. It's just getting that 1/2 mins...

I press record, start jamming with mutes, synth/FX settings, change patterns and stuff. Then when I'm finished I press stop. That's the only way I know how to make an arrangement, on the fly. I simply can't wrap my head around the concept of not doing it in realtime. It's like an alien language to me.

I've also never released anything. I wonder if there's a connection...

Just to add my personal take on this one.
I hardly ever pick a track because it has a "good" arrangement, I just skip to the middle of the track and if I like it chances are that it will be in my playlist.

For sure if you build a big club techno tune would fit to add a breakdown but nothing too special,just remove the kick or the low freqs.,add a build up and BBBBOOOOOOMMMM bring it all together.

So for me a good track is a good one because after listening to it for 3-5 seconds it gets me,not because of its arrangement.

sometimes I copy the arrangement from other tracks,I have the mp3 on a separate channel on arrangement view (Ableton) and from I make my changes.

Its all about arrangement for me these days, love listening to how other people go about structuring there tracks.
The modern music landscape is bleak and originality means EVERYTHING!!!

Arrangement means a lot to me also. I don't really like tracks with multiple break downs.

As far as I go, I try to build the main body first, then decide if there will be a breakdown. Then usually I'll work on the intro, since for me whatever happens around the middle of the track is kind of dependant on the flow of the track before.

Must say now, I've become interested in the way Rrose arranges, where in the latter sections of the track he builds up extreme synth progressions instead of winding down.
In my next projects I'd like to test something like this. Basically what Mslwte said almost be a bit anti-system, and not really care about being DJ friendly.

I quite like to draw a diagram of the arrangement in graph form to visualise where the lows and peaks are.

My 2 cents:

There are 2 ways for me to do arrangements, which, i believe, depend on why i do music (actually these days i only follow number 2):

1) the "club" specific way, which is based on intros, outros, buildups, etc. Basically its a formula And You can follow what Mr. Breakz said before. I dont do this anymore... Making "Club'" focused music's is boring to me.

2) the fuck all way, in which case the arrangement just comes naturally: either via live take, loop construction an idea that i had in my mind or lucky experimentation. This way is far more rewarding And liberating.

If you dont do club specific music And have problems with arrangements, just follow what mslwte said:

Mslwte wrote: Just finish tracks even if you think they are rubbish. The more you do something the better you will get!

Experience is the best teacher

Btw curious to hear what mister voidloss as to say about this.

@ICN: had the some problem in the begining with adding Stuff after making the kick And bass ahahah

@ashley BORG: same here about the Rrose part! In the track im making right now im trying to add that Rrose feeling to it: continiously automating Stuff And slowly allowing them to "blossom" ahahah

One of the strong points of Ableton is that you can jam your tracks out.

I hit record in clip view and start triggering stuff, jam it out.
Once you get something that way, go into arrangement view and tweak and tune, copy paste etc. that way you are working by ear and not by sight.
I do my automation live and I sequence live, it's why I use Ableton.
Working in arrangement view just feels stifling, like working with cubase or something.

ICN wrote:I used to be a kick and bass kinda guy whenever I started trying to arrange something. I was always disappointed. Sounded too bare.

I feel this way a lot lately. Starting off with my kick *first thing* usually leaves me feeling completely irritated by it. I think I'm usually a lot more productive when I start off with a synth sequence first off before even thinking about percussion.

Mslwte wrote:
Just finish tracks even if you think they are rubbish. The more you do something the better you will get!

I think this is key. Just finish that shit even if you thinks its..well...shit.

Mslwte wrote:Just finish tracks even if you think they are rubbish. The more you do something the better you will get!

yeah for sure! i usually give up on tracks i don't like, but pushing everything you start to some point close to the final track is gaining experience and sense of how your tracks start to become tracks in sound not only in your head. Have to keep this on my mind.

Tobs wrote:
2) the fuck all way, in which case the arrangement just comes naturally: either via live take, loop construction an idea that i had in my mind or lucky experimentation. This way is far more rewarding And liberating.

this is basically mine approach as well. sometimes i jam out tracks in ableton using technique voidloss mentioned sometimes I'm lucky bastard and sometimes i think of some arrangement and literally draw it somehow on piece of paper or something and then repeat that in DAW. But nevertheless easily get lost in overworking everything.. ;p

ashley BORG wrote: Must say now, I've become interested in the way Rrose arranges, where in the latter sections of the track he builds up extreme synth progressions instead of winding down.

first time I've heard Rrose i was stunned with the way his tracks evolve through progression into mind-bending body movers. his arrangements are very tactile and I think pretty much improvised from some point..

I think to make an working arrangement you have to work it more then think it so you can catch those moments in tracks that give you shivers. Being tactile with pots and keys and pads and making sounds by moving fingers and hands is the best way, I think, you can interact with sound and free the same sound.. I love Ableton because it makes this so easy and enjoyable.

I used to make full on loop and to stretch it out through six, five minutes and then reduce some elements somewhere and do some automation to make transitions between parts more fluid.. this was the fastest way but with most boring and generic outcomes.

Thing is good arrangements in general, even through they are not club-intended, will most likely always still work in a club.
Unless you do something odd like put the climax the last 30 sec of a track or shit

Mattias wrote:Thing is good arrangements in general, even through they are not club-intended, will most likely always still work in a club.
Unless you do something odd like put the climax the last 30 sec of a track or shit

indeed!

actually last week i heard james holden playing this slow burner at 4/5 am in madrid, just a tad bit more pitched up and everyone going crazy.

youtu.be/gIh_YUkZIvc

but that's james, a full on wizard. but it's funny isn't? if non club based arrangements work really well in proper clubs, why should you force yourself do a club arrangement? to help bad dj's play your tracks at bad clubs?

Mslwte wrote:Just finish tracks even if you think they are rubbish. The more you do something the better you will get!

+1

I dislike arranging also, but you need to practice, practice & pratice. I'm also always working too much on perfecting the sound, endless tweaking and zero track output.

@Chernobyl > great example, can totally imagine the club went wild

As a DJ I quite enjoy trying to play tracks with non-standard arrangements, within reason of course. I don't want every track to have an x-bar intro, y-bar buildup, etc, I'd get bored.

Not much else to say on this thread, I'm one of these people who has trouble making their loops into full tracks and when I do I'm not always happy with the arrangements. And when I do come up with a good arrangement, half the time I don't even know how I came up with it, it almost just writes itself...

Can totally imagine that Andy Stott track working, great track. First heard it on Sven Vath's very surprisingly good ambient/downtempo style RA podcast. Love that disco loop kind of sample that kicks in occassionally, gives such an interesting boost of energy/off-kilter feel to the track when that happens. Andy Stott is ace!