Arranging a song (arrangements)

Punxsutawney Phil's Shadow _ Contains 'A Best Of..' Selection Of Frequently Discussed Topics From THE HOLE
User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Lost to the Void »

Am I the only one using Ableton who doesn't work in arrangement view?
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

User avatar
Críoch
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 11025
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:22 pm
Location: Lego City
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Críoch »

Depends..

Little bit of both Mate
KennethExack wrote:My kids and I are completely shocked by the specialized secrets that everyone has on this forum
>> Click here for NEW POSTS on subsekt <<

Dialog I The Hole I subsekt Blog I The Bench I IG I SC I Mixes I FB

User avatar
arc
^^ Has a Drumcode Tattoo
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:02 pm
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by arc »

Since I got my DDJ-SX and have been using Serato, I feel like it's a good idea to make my arrangements somewhat predictable so that they mix really well both in and out. Of course I think it's important to approach tracks without any boundaries, but I also think it's important to keep in mind why we make this type of music to begin with. Most Techno isn't very well suited for listening in isolation because it's usually way too repetitive. It's very rare that I find a track that can be played all by itself and keep my interest the entire way through.

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Lost to the Void »

arc wrote: very rare that I find a track that can be played all by itself and keep my interest the entire way through.
Listen to better music?
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

User avatar
arc
^^ Has a Drumcode Tattoo
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:02 pm
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by arc »

That's a great idea, Steve. Thanks.

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Lost to the Void »

haha
:mrgreen:
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

TechnoDude
pregnant
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:31 pm
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by TechnoDude »

This is a pretty good article on subtractive arrangement -> http://tarekith.com/assets/arranging.html

disparate
I forgot.... So baked.
Posts: 424
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 12:48 pm
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by disparate »

tdmusic wrote:Love that disco loop kind of sample that kicks in occassionally, gives such an interesting boost of energy/off-kilter feel to the track when that happens. Andy Stott is ace!
Yeah that's one of my favourite bits of the track, it sounds out of place and a bit too loud in the mix but I wouldn't want it any other way!

Been into him since he was making more conventional dubby techno, but I reckon his best stuff is the Passed Me By/We Stay Together albums.

CRDM
hmmmmmm...
Posts: 374
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:05 am
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by CRDM »

Arrangement and getting things completed has been the biggest hurdle for me so far but I'm getting a lot more effective at doing it as I would hope with practise.

I'm using ableton and I've gone through various techniques of making tracks. Now what I do is jam with a few elements in session view, create some variations but am already thinking of how these elements could progress as soon as I put them in, as I felt like I would often get stuck in session view mode and these ideas wouldn't translate to a full arrangement.

Now that I'm keeping song progression in mind when initially jamming, I get it so there are a few main elements working together in session view, and then spread them across the length of the track, and then add song markers as general things to aim for with the arrangement. I then take elements away, create incidentals and variations and then record in automations (plus automations from clip view).

However,

I think that my best arrangements came from when I owned an apc 40 and I would launch the clips live into arrangement view as well as automate live. My songs came out sounding a lot more natural and musical. I sold it as I needed some cash a while back when moving. I'm going to get one again and combine my way of working now with the live element. I'm glad I tried a new workflow to just jamming live, as experience is experience, and it's changed my thought pattern on creating tracks, however I think live jamming results in better arrangements for me.

I think the most helpful thing with getting better at arrangements is just to be thinking of how a song would progress, how elements can progress right from the off start of jamming, sounds obvious but I think this mind set avoids getting stuck in loop mode.

I've written too much, but I couldn't condense my thoughts on this!
Last edited by CRDM on Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Mono-xID
Uumfääng
Posts: 3380
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:20 pm
Location: Berlin
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Mono-xID »

I say it again. Arrangement is somewhat of a craft imo. Try to finish every fuckin' sketch of which you think it's a cool idea. You have to practise like with everything in life. It will lead you nowhere when you have 30789 unfinished projects on your HD!!!
http://soundcloud.com/monoxid

Behringer = ARTS label of synths

CRDM
hmmmmmm...
Posts: 374
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:05 am
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by CRDM »

To add to my already overweight post, I'm finding when initially creating/auditioning elements for a tune; leaving percussion till last being really helpful. Get the other elements, synths, atmos, field recordings etc working together to create a groove. Then when you add percussion this will emphasise or switch up that groove.

I find if I work the other way round, when it comes to arrangement and I take away the percussion, the other elements sometimes don't sound like they are working together.

User avatar
ashley BORG
Small Penis
Posts: 2633
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:10 pm
Location: The big smoke London
Contact:
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by ashley BORG »

In terms of song arrangement I've always liked this track. This is my go to tune to make a crowd go nuts. Sounds great in the mix, and the ambient section in the second half is great for keeping under the next track in the mix.

youtu.be/r0abkHGMsT4

User avatar
Pantschowa
Alf Garnett
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:28 pm
Location: Pančevo, Serbia
Contact:
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Pantschowa »

Mono-xID wrote:I say it again. Arrangement is somewhat of a craft imo. Try to finish every fuckin' sketch of which you think it's a cool idea. You have to practise like with everything in life. It will lead you nowhere when you have 30789 unfinished projects on your HD!!!
thumbs up for you again. :)
it is a craft and I realized that by actually finishing tracks.

@CRDM: ableton can be tricky especially for the people who don't have their own workflow and direction of doing things, since you can just play everything u made until then and it loops over and over again and you easily get lost in tweaking knobs around. and get tired of loop that is playing.. happened to me so many times..

but on the other side, as you said.. best arrangements came out from using controllers and hardware. probably because of being tactile with the sound and creating it from moves of your fingers. :D

@ashley: great example! love that track.

I like this one when it comes to arrangements..

youtu.be/mzunsK8DDQU
Last edited by Pantschowa on Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jordanneke
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 4166
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:16 pm
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by jordanneke »

When it comes to arranging, I'll make a loop of the Kick and the hook (be it percussion, or a stab, or a pad) then listen to it in the background for a long time, whilst doing other thing on the computer, in the session view

Little by little, I start to hear the new elements that need to be added, so occasially i'll go back to it, drop in a hat, Porc, etc....

That takes a while, from a few hours onwards.

But once that is done I have a pretty good idea what the break is going to be, how long I can listen to certain noises together before I have to change someting up, or what I can automate.

For me the good thing is that I'm pretty sure what the arrangement is going to be before I actively lay it down. (Plus I keep my tracks hella-simple, so the arrangement isn't that complicated).


(Plus I have markers pre-set to help me place sections - I'll probably get flamed for that, but it kind helps me)

User avatar
Pantschowa
Alf Garnett
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:28 pm
Location: Pančevo, Serbia
Contact:
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Pantschowa »

jordanneke wrote: Little by little, I start to hear the new elements that need to be added, so occasially i'll go back to it, drop in a hat, Porc, etc....
yeah this can be the factor also.. I made so many tracks out of "hallucinations". I'm doing a track and suddenly I think I've heard something in the track that actually doesn't exist and just add it because it sounded awesome for that particular part. :D

User avatar
scamartist
Chernobyl
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:51 am
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by scamartist »

I think the arrangement side of things is where a lot of my tracks fall down.

They are either too predictable and plodding or too busy but I find it difficult to get the sweet spot between the two.

User avatar
phlek
Exampleless
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:35 pm
Location: The Dales, North Yorkshire, UK
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by phlek »

scamartist wrote:I think the arrangement side of things is where a lot of my tracks fall down.

They are either too predictable and plodding or too busy but I find it difficult to get the sweet spot between the two.
Yep, I have that exact same problem...

User avatar
Mono-xID
Uumfääng
Posts: 3380
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:20 pm
Location: Berlin
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Mono-xID »

Most of my recent tracks took form like this:

First of all, i program a drum pattern on a drum machine (D16 Drumazon or Nepheton,Geist etc.),playing around with swing settings,mutes and variations of this pattern. If i got something that i like, i route every single output to an audio channel (kick = channel 1, clap = channel 2 and so on). After that i begin with effect processing on the different channels while the drum loop is playing.

Now i record all the channels in session view while jamming along with some pattern changes and shit. The drums are nearly done now. Now i try to build up something with a synth or browsing through my library for some interesting sounds,Porc loops etc. Again,heavy effect processing is applied.

When having a nice loop running,everything gets copied to arrangement view. Now i use the "subtractive arrangement" method. Usually i have lots of parameters from the synths or effect units mapped to the APC40 and i play the whole track now while recording the real-time automations to keep the track a bit more interesting. From there it's just a few bits and bops to the finished track (maybe a pad sound inserted afterwards,whatever sounds good really).
http://soundcloud.com/monoxid

Behringer = ARTS label of synths

Cloaked
hunger marcher
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:14 pm
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Cloaked »

Most arrangement problems (too boring, too flat, too messy, too many changes etc) are usually a sign your elements aren't strong enough.

As Ron Modell said, the track only works when you can leave it on loop for most of the day and not get bored.

When the elements are good enough they'll arrange themselves.

CRDM
hmmmmmm...
Posts: 374
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:05 am
Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by CRDM »

Cloaked wrote: When the elements are good enough they'll arrange themselves.
This. When there's a solid idea there and the foundations of the track are working well together the basic arrangement unfolds on it's own.


Locked