Arranging a song (arrangements)

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Ttinga
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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Ttinga »

CRDM wrote:To add to my already overweight post, I'm finding when initially creating/auditioning elements for a tune; leaving percussion till last being really helpful. Get the other elements, synths, atmos, field recordings etc working together to create a groove. Then when you add percussion this will emphasise or switch up that groove.

I find if I work the other way round, when it comes to arrangement and I take away the percussion, the other elements sometimes don't sound like they are working together.
Interesting way of working since techno is often so percussion heavy. I'll have to try it sometime.

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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Blocktechno »

holy shit. glad its not just me that suffers from problems with arrangements!! i've got more unfinished projects than i care to think about. i really like the idea of creating the arrangement on the fly as it seems that it always sounds best when i'm just pissing about rather than actually trying to work on a project! however, unless i'm doing it wrong (which is quite easy for me) maschine and ableton don't really seem to allow this to happen...does anybody else find this?

For those that are creating the arrangement on the fly, what controllers (if any) are you using?

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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Críoch »

Hey man.. just a regular midi keyboard with pots. Faders and buttons. Assigning scenes and parameters to controls in midi map mode
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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Barfunkel »

Blocktechno wrote:holy shit. glad its not just me that suffers from problems with arrangements!! i've got more unfinished projects than i care to think about. i really like the idea of creating the arrangement on the fly as it seems that it always sounds best when i'm just pissing about rather than actually trying to work on a project! however, unless i'm doing it wrong (which is quite easy for me) maschine and ableton don't really seem to allow this to happen...does anybody else find this?

For those that are creating the arrangement on the fly, what controllers (if any) are you using?
Hmm, isn't Ableton like designed to make loopy jams (instead of linear songs) with? Never used it though, that's just my impression.

And you have a Maschine too... I don't think you need anything else, unless you plan on going fully hardware.
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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by tdmusic »

Maschine doesn't really seem to allow this, which is kind of crap - there's no concept of song automation, rather than pattern automation. Hopefully they'll release a 2.0 version which adds some real-time capture of pattern changes, mutes and automation in a song- rather than pattern-based way, as I find Maschine a very creative environment to play around in but difficult to arrange.

However, Ableton definitely does support this - just set up your MIDI mappings so that you have control of the parameters you want to tweak over the track, clear your arrangement if there is anything in there, then hit record in session mode and trigger your clips and tweak your automation as you wish - all this will be recorded into the arrange. You can then go back and overdub another pass, automating different parameters or correcting mistakes. You can map parameters to your Maschine's pots by switching it to MIDI only mode (shift + Control) or you can use their Ableton template: http://www.native-instruments.com/knowl ... I+Template which seems quite good for triggering clips but I'm not sure how easy it is to learn new MIDI to the pots (as they are all pre-mapped to Ableton functions).

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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Blocktechno »

My question about what controllers probably wasn't put across as well as it could have been...sorry folks. I'm cool with mapping etc but was more curious to know what other people are using. I know the APC40's mentioned a bit but wondered if there were other favourites.

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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Pantschowa »

well actually it's up to you. there is no "wrong" set up I think.
All you need to do is to search and try the equipment and find the set up that suites you best for producing, arranging or preforming. I see that novation launch pads for ableton are popular as well this new ableton push. then any other controllers with keys or knobs.. or even hardware synths or drum machines.. just find your most friendly piece of equipment. I made few live performances with my brother on guitar. I was playing korg electribe through ableton and used nano pads as controllers for vsts and paning and levels. and had one launchpad as well and managed to improvise some really nice technoish/guitar/dark/ambient/industrial jam arrangements. there is a video somewhere.. i think there is a shot where you can see this modest set up: http://youtu.be/TCcRa_-FnK4 :)

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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Twilitez »

Ttinga wrote:
CRDM wrote:To add to my already overweight post, I'm finding when initially creating/auditioning elements for a tune; leaving percussion till last being really helpful. Get the other elements, synths, atmos, field recordings etc working together to create a groove. Then when you add percussion this will emphasise or switch up that groove.

I find if I work the other way round, when it comes to arrangement and I take away the percussion, the other elements sometimes don't sound like they are working together.
Interesting way of working since techno is often so percussion heavy. I'll have to try it sometime.
Changing your habits eh. Ill have to test it. I usually do the exact opposite of what you described since i LOVE playing with drums.

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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by mihnea »

Blocktechno wrote:My question about what controllers probably wasn't put across as well as it could have been...sorry folks. I'm cool with mapping etc but was more curious to know what other people are using. I know the APC40's mentioned a bit but wondered if there were other favourites.
I got a cheap controller, Korg nanoKontrol 2 and it is almost everything I need now.The knobs took me a little while to configure correctly, but other than that it's all good.I even use to record the arrangement.
I also have a Maschine Mikro V2, can't wait to actually use it with Ableton.

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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Críoch »

Just listening back to something I did last night, where I did the "Fridell Hat-Trick" - basically a low, supporting hat from the start that fills in the gap when the main hat is out.

Sounds good. Can definitely recommend it. Really prevents that lack of energy / vacuum that happens when you take stuff out.. or are waiting for stuff to come in.
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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by scamartist »

I like the sound of that.

Do you have a link to an example?

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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Críoch »

Heres a cool remix from Mattias where he has it.. but it's something that he often does.



Longer preview on Beatport: http://www.beatport.com/track/devoted-m ... ix/4035557

But seriously.. try it yourself.. its such a simple thing to do. No need to get an example :P :D

haha
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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Kryo »

Mslwte wrote:...Just force yourself into it. I used to have a real issue with it but now I've made loads of tracks with all sorts of different styles of arrangement and I don't think about it anymore.

The key to the arrangement completed is to have a decent initial loop that I can have playing continuously without getting feed up with it. If I do get fed up with it then ill save it and go back to it another time.

Just finish tracks even if you think they are rubbish. The more you do something the better you will get!
Wise advise. I get always stuck on the "basic loop" of the groove. I make it sound good, and I don't get tired of it, but when I've to arrange it on a 5-9min track I piss off myself with "wtf, I can't make it be alive naturally, like evolving with time". Need to really finish some tracks, I haven't arranged a full track for like 1 year... sad
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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by b0n0b0 »

I also hate and am shite at arranging tracks. Some tips and things I've been trying lately;

-In live label your scenes something like:
Intro 1
Intro 2
Intro fill
Groove 1
Fill 1
Groove 2
Fill 2
Groove 3
Fill 3
Switched up
Outro 1
outro fill
outro 2

I find this sometimes helps me to start moving from one cool loop to some idea of how it might work as a track, you don't have to use every scene for every idea and you can add new ones as needed, but its a nice prompt.

Currently I'm building all my ideas this way and then trying to 'play' them into arrangement view roughly, so I can go back and edit and tweak. I'm hoping a nearly-full arrangement already there when I tab over will less intimidating than fuck all, which always makes me want to tab right back :lol:



In the same way, adding tracks called 'atmosphere' or 'fx' can be helpful. If I make a great 16 beat loop I found its often totally missing any kind of atmosphere or FX type sounds, since you could quite easily listen to a few bars from a great track and not hear any it doesn't sound to obvious, but they are a massive part of building a track that doesn't loose interest after 32 beats.

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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by ashley BORG »

Another thing I'd add to the whole finishing tracks thing is actually to make locked grooves out of loops which can't be fleshed out in to fully arranged tracks.

Nothing wrong with a good loops well EQ'd and automated. In this age of digital DJing there's enough room for that type of thing.

For me personally I'd be much happier having a well polished loop which I like, rather than a shit/average track that I've forced myself to complete.

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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Mslwte »

ashley BORG wrote:Another thing I'd add to the whole finishing tracks thing is actually to make locked grooves out of loops which can't be fleshed out in to fully arranged tracks.

Nothing wrong with a good loops well EQ'd and automated. In this age of digital DJing there's enough room for that type of thing.

For me personally I'd be much happier having a well polished loop which I like, rather than a shit/average track that I've forced myself to complete.
Totally agree on dj loops! ;)
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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by drew85 »

i used to be a loop barrier kinda guy but recently ive been using my new novation impulse 49 and although im not very musicaly minded ive really enjoyed messing about in realtime with all the paremeters then go back and do another take on a diiferent scene and do the same. things ive came up with are so far from what i set out to do but getting intresting sounds and feel im able to be a tad more creative this way and its less boring but im coming from a dj pov mite not be for everyone

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Re: Arranging a song (arrangements)

Post by Pantschowa »

ashley BORG wrote:Another thing I'd add to the whole finishing tracks thing is actually to make locked grooves out of loops which can't be fleshed out in to fully arranged tracks.

Nothing wrong with a good loops well EQ'd and automated. In this age of digital DJing there's enough room for that type of thing.

For me personally I'd be much happier having a well polished loop which I like, rather than a shit/average track that I've forced myself to complete.
Never thought of that. Guess I'll be polishing and rendering bunch of loops I've made before. :D


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