Quantization and off-grid notes

Punxsutawney Phil's Shadow _ Contains 'A Best Of..' Selection Of Frequently Discussed Topics From THE HOLE
innovine
hmmmmmm...
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu May 02, 2013 7:16 am
Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by innovine »

Hey all.
Just curious what you are all doing regarding quantization and programming on and off the grid..
For the bread-and-butter sounds (kicks, hats, snares, claps, toms etc) are you placing all of these on the grid? How important is off the grid work? I have mostly been working with xox style hardware and perfectly quantized hits, but am wondering if a bit more swing, groove and looser timing is worth exploring.. any thoughts on this? Are there particular sub-genres which are looser than others?

User avatar
Mslwte
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 5903
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:32 pm
Contact:
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by Mslwte »

Swing it to fuck :D

I use swing and I'll move drum sounds of the grid I'll also move warp points for audio as well. I'll manipulate anything really. If it sounds good it stays. I've always though that groove is one of the most important parts of a track.
https://soundcloud.com/mslwte
https://noizefacilityrecords.bandcamp.com
https://www.instagram.com/subsekt909
https://www.facebook.com/subsekt909/
Lost to the Void wrote:Fuck off, get some tequila down ya neck and make some noise you cunt....

Planar
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 3883
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:05 pm
Location: Leeds
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by Planar »

Anything goes really, but as a dj I won't bother with anything too off the grid unless the track is exceptional, so bear in mind that I'm probably not alone there. I'd say keep the kicks on the grid and the main percussion like snares, claps etc very slightly off grid, a couple of ms to push or pull the groove. Everything else is fun to play in by hand with a drum pad controller and tweak afterwards.

User avatar
Críoch
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 11025
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:22 pm
Location: Lego City
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by Críoch »

I dress slightly to the right
KennethExack wrote:My kids and I are completely shocked by the specialized secrets that everyone has on this forum
>> Click here for NEW POSTS on subsekt <<

Dialog I The Hole I subsekt Blog I The Bench I IG I SC I Mixes I FB

innovine
hmmmmmm...
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu May 02, 2013 7:16 am
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by innovine »

Yeah I'm only talking about a few ms here and there, not the real wonky stuff. I've never really figured out how this contributes to groove, and don't really hear it when it's done subtly. Of course I've heard of people using groove templates and so, but not really clicked as to how widespread this is. So it's fair to say most tracks have something slightly off perfect? I guess I will have to look into this a lot more.

Planar
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 3883
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:05 pm
Location: Leeds
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by Planar »

A clap a few ms in front of a snare on the 2 and 4 is very common in housier genres, it is subtle but it works.

Groove templates apply a predetermined groove to your patterns. They're very useful as a basis to making your parts feel more human. Hit velocity is also very important for groove. In fact, this is a good point, does anyone know where I can get more groove templates for Ableton? Maybe the swing from the x0x drum machines? I know I could make some of my own with drumazon, but these must be out there on the internet somewhere already?

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by Lost to the Void »

I can`t stand rigid mechanical beats, I`m a drummer and I love groove.
I try to humanise stuff as much as I can, I`m not into stuff sounding like only machines were involved.

Groove templates, swing and going off grid are important for me.
I like making sounds late so they stumble in to the kicks, which drives the beat forwards.
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

User avatar
Lag
athlete
Posts: 576
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:28 pm
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by Lag »

I've got several tricks for this.
The first one is simply doing a time shift to make the sounds a bit early or late. Basically it creates a different pull for different elements which adds to the overall chemistry between them.
Second - Reason has a note timing randomiser. Basically you can tell it to randomize the timing of the note within a certain range. It goes both ways. I never use this on the dominant elements though.
Third - make a drum loop, export the length of the loop, load it in the sampler and timestretch it so that it has a slightly different bpm than the track. This way it misses the quantization more as it goes and resets to grid when it starts again.
You have to systematically create confusion, it sets creativity free. Everything that is contradictory creates life.

User avatar
willemb
Mild
Posts: 1572
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:06 pm
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by willemb »

I dont mind robotic rigiddity, and often my tracks are. I dont really understand humanising electronic music, its not a drummer. Making something more organic, fair enough, but i see this as an alien organic life form, rather than something human. I'm not saying anything about other peoples music, its just not for me!

I think traditionally I used to get groove from breakbeats and hihat loops. I've never liked the default, always lazy never rushing, logic quantisation (16A, 16B, 16C swing), it doesn't really add anything for me. Manually with the mouse shifting has never worked for me, and having tried MPC groove templates it just felt wrong to me as well. I dont really do live playing, I'm shit at it and have little interest in it.

However, I do like a bit of groove every now and again, be it from a slightly off drumloop or a funky sample, or from slightly off or wonky delays creating ghost notes. Delay wise i would never really view it as groove, but in essence it is. (A personal favourite tape delay preset I created is a 16th note with no feedback, and lots of LFO, timing rigid or possibly slightly early, this creates an organic extra feel to hats and most other percs)

Not too long ago I got a korg ER mk1, and i do like the groove it can add to things, the simplest patterns sound totally different with and without groove. This is mostly a combination of "swing" and also the accents and non accent hits.

I also apply a timeshift sometimes, but again this is not really quantisation, it is just shifting a particular element slightly later or earlier. Especially when you combine several percussion sounds, apart from adding groove, it can have a massive influence on the sound it creates as well.

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by Lost to the Void »

Well, I put it in the same category as people moaning about sync used in mixing, and wanting some idea of a human being involved.
It's the same with the music itself for me. The juxtaposition between human error and mechanical perfection is where the music becomes interesting for me, in all facets of it.
Plus when the music is too rigid. The build up of transients becomes really ugly, you start getting nasty micropeaks and it fucks with the harmonics.
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

User avatar
GLinet
Little chief
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:27 pm
Location: Buffalo NY
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by GLinet »

I think everything besides the kick is fair game for getting nudged this way or that. Hell if you don't care about DJs and clubs you can move the kick too. I think I have a Woo York track that's useless because it has groove on the kick.

I even like moving the ghost kick back about a millisecond, to give the sidechain comp a bit of a head start... seems to tighten things up.

User avatar
willemb
Mild
Posts: 1572
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:06 pm
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by willemb »

Oh i agree about separating transients, maybe you are better at hearing those than i am though, its a fix for me that only sometimes feel i need to apply.

For the longest part of my life i preferred perfect synced (by a good dj using vinyl) mixes over slightly off more human mixes, but now I can see the benefit in both. I think I am slightly odd in this compared to most, i almost always prefer studio anything over live. I was brought up by my brother to see nights where it sounded like the same kick the whole way through (or at least indistinguishable where one stops and the next starts) as the ideal, any deviation from that was wrong in my eyes. Appreciating non perfection in mixes has only come to me in the last 6 years or so.

Still, I like some non perfection, but not humanisation. I hate humans anyway, cunts they are.

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by Lost to the Void »

Maybe humanise is the wrong word.
Un-machinise?
de-machinise?

Chaosification.

I'm no fan of humans either.
One day, when my people finally come and conquer this planet, we will eliminate them.
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

User avatar
ozias_leduc
ANAL
Posts: 918
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 5:35 am
Location: melbourne, australia
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by ozias_leduc »

yeah i prefer imperfections. whether it's just some subtle position-randomization to emulate wonderfully inaccurate midi/cv timings of the old days or all out uncoordinated human sloppiness, it depends.

in techno i usually like things relentless-machine-like , but machines are more believable if there is some imperfections in their timing

playing with the timing of notes is an important way to add character to a track

innovine
hmmmmmm...
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu May 02, 2013 7:16 am
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by innovine »

I am also a drummer, and aware of the role these timing variations have. I also produce some dnb with chopped up breaks. However, I've nearly always sequenced my techno with an electribe, and just recently moved over to using an MPC. In the MPC I can rush or drag individual hits, but it only occured to me to do this in techno pretty recently. I guess I just naturally fell into using the MPC's xox mode for techno :)

I read an interesting article a while ago where they used some statistical analysis methods on musicians 'human' timing errors. Apparently there is a huge degree of correlation between timing 'errors' early in a piece, and what comes much later, like in the chorus. This means that it's not just a hit or two early or late, but that somehow, in an unknown way, these off-timings are actually very cleverly connected to the music piece as a whole. This also means that the randomization features to humanize timing are completely wrong. Also, that timing variations that repeat exactly each bar are very unhuman. If you listen (or worse, try to play drums to) Burial, the hits are all over the place, and it does your head in trying to hold that perfectly steady.

User avatar
Lag
athlete
Posts: 576
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:28 pm
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by Lag »

If you have four to the floor kicks you have the natural accent on the first and third. Putting a snare drum on the second and fourth helps the loop drive forward, if you put it on first and third it helps keep the loop "grounded".
Take it to a smaller scale - if you have 1/4th of a loop you have the kick and the empty space. Put a hihat on the kick to ground the loop, put it on the second half of the 1/4th to help drive the loop forward.
Take it to an even smaller scale - make any sound go later in relation to the grid it will help the loop pull forward, make it stick to the place where it is or start earlier and it will ground it or pull it back. It's simple as that.
If you use a DAW everything will be on grid. But just like being a drummer who can time his hits perfectly doesn't FORCE you to do it, but you can have the snare drum come in late every time to create a certain feel (think surf music) so you can make everything late to establish a certain groove in your EDM track. This is the meaning of the word "humanization".
The thing is, people using hardware ages ago usually had this in their tracks whether they wanted it or not. In case you weren't Kraftwerk or Laurent Garnier who had money for some good midi sync equipment (probably why I never got into either) you had a natural lag of some elements due to some piece of equipment being further down the MIDI chain and information needing time to pass from the sequencer down the cables and through the gear. This is one of those "hardware is better than software" things, as (even though most people probably didn't know it) it pushes you the music to be something that is significantly more dancable and groovy than working in a DAW where everything is perfectly on time. You can basically feel the shift of music from 2002. when DAWs were still shitty, to 2005. when anyone could use a computer to make music. Techno completely lost energy, even though it got faster and louder every year. This doesn't only relate to schranz, but to "normal" techno as well - which a part of the reason why most people chose to abandon it in favor of MNML. It just simply felt wrong!

As for the randomization of notes - it also sounds good and theorizing about it doesn't make it less so. The point is to randomize the timing within a loop and then repeat the loop. You can hear a lot of it here, in the hats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6xEi3lvnos
You have to systematically create confusion, it sets creativity free. Everything that is contradictory creates life.

User avatar
Hades
Shit Eater
Posts: 9795
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:02 am
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by Hades »

apart from the obvious stuff like switching off the grid and moving notes back- or forwards,
I use track delay a lot.
It's a bit of a can of worms, cause sometimes you can really feel like the track's going wrong,
and the more you move it around, the worse it gets, and you doubt about where you gotta put it.
But I've noticed I get better and better in using it, and sometimes I just wildly dial in a setting and the whole track changes because one of the main elements is now sitting somewhere completely different in the groove. That's when you get lucky. You could call them "happy accidents" except you did it on purpose.

Another thing I haven't seen anyone mentioning is that your groove can really totally change if you change the velocity of your drum sounds. People seem to be so lazy with velocity sometimes.
You don't even need to change the timing, the feeling of your groove just gets different when you make notes louder or softer.
If you just copy your original clip and try out a few changes, you can always go back to the original clip if you don't like the changes (undo doesn't always work that great, especially if you also change stuff with external plugins, I prefer to work with copies of my clips).
Sin cambios no hay mariposa


User avatar
msl
║▌║█║▌│║▌║▌█
Posts: 1505
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:47 am
Location: Berlin
Contact:
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by msl »

Yeah track delay on hi hats/shakers, and manually shifting other things mostly claps, sometimes kicks too. The MPC grooves in Ableton are handy esp for house.

.
www.bernadettetrax.bandcamp.com
www.soundcloud.com/michaellovatt


“Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.” Dune

User avatar
bram2000
reverse genius
Posts: 242
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:32 pm
Location: London
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by bram2000 »

Another aspect of groove which I overlooked for a long time is the note length. Having some hits longer than others, as well as slightly shifting the note start times can totally change the feel of a loop (make sure your synth is not in 'one shot' mode or similar).

User avatar
SFBM
&roid
Posts: 504
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:10 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:
Re: Quantization and off-grid notes

Post by SFBM »

Lag wrote:If you have four to the floor kicks you have the natural accent on the first and third. Putting a snare drum on the second and fourth helps the loop drive forward, if you put it on first and third it helps keep the loop "grounded".
Take it to a smaller scale - if you have 1/4th of a loop you have the kick and the empty space. Put a hihat on the kick to ground the loop, put it on the second half of the 1/4th to help drive the loop forward.
Take it to an even smaller scale - make any sound go later in relation to the grid it will help the loop pull forward, make it stick to the place where it is or start earlier and it will ground it or pull it back. It's simple as that.
If you use a DAW everything will be on grid. But just like being a drummer who can time his hits perfectly doesn't FORCE you to do it, but you can have the snare drum come in late every time to create a certain feel (think surf music) so you can make everything late to establish a certain groove in your EDM track. This is the meaning of the word "humanization".
The thing is, people using hardware ages ago usually had this in their tracks whether they wanted it or not. In case you weren't Kraftwerk or Laurent Garnier who had money for some good midi sync equipment (probably why I never got into either) you had a natural lag of some elements due to some piece of equipment being further down the MIDI chain and information needing time to pass from the sequencer down the cables and through the gear. This is one of those "hardware is better than software" things, as (even though most people probably didn't know it) it pushes you the music to be something that is significantly more dancable and groovy than working in a DAW where everything is perfectly on time. You can basically feel the shift of music from 2002. when DAWs were still shitty, to 2005. when anyone could use a computer to make music. Techno completely lost energy, even though it got faster and louder every year. This doesn't only relate to schranz, but to "normal" techno as well - which a part of the reason why most people chose to abandon it in favor of MNML. It just simply felt wrong!

As for the randomization of notes - it also sounds good and theorizing about it doesn't make it less so. The point is to randomize the timing within a loop and then repeat the loop. You can hear a lot of it here, in the hats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6xEi3lvnos

Wow! Thanks for that write up! I've been fiddling with and slightly struggling with the off grid note placement, and had never thought about these things in this way before. Going to try out your example with the kick and a hat in a loop and fiddle around a bit with their positions , setting one to be grounded vs driven forward, etc, until I get more of a hang of the direction of the loop. Thanks!


Locked