Creating heavy heavy heavy techno sub bass lines!

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loopdon
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Re: subsekt sound design school _ BASS

Post by loopdon »

only on laptop speakers right now.

http://www.sendspace.com/filegroup/XANh ... 1NZBDsy8VQ

Twice the same line, once with swing.
Add some ducking action via the kick.
Filter to taste etc.
I hope this even translates.

Just to get the 'techno'-flavour over.

loopdon
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Re: subsekt sound design school _ BASS

Post by loopdon »

I did some more stuff.
This time i tuned some percs via Directwave in FL Studio,
then pressed randomize to create 1 bar loops in the key of C (hopefully).
These i then looped over 1 beat, 2 beats, 3 beats.
130bpm. If anything, you could still cut out snippets :)

Only a limiter on the bus, the files with _master attached should be all the loops
playing atop each other. Not normalized. Add delay, Sidechain, slice, re-dice.

Use as u please, no strings attached.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/0ht2ss

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Re: subsekt sound design school _ BASS

Post by loopdon »

Man, listening on headphones they absolutely don't sound as i envisioned.
Will redo, sorry.

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Re: subsekt sound design school _ BASS

Post by strawMan »

ICN wrote:C'mon people - I'm gonna start deleting A/c's & banning IP's if we dont get some more :)

Pencil me in, gimme some time though - busy over the xmas period...

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Re: subsekt sound design school _ BASS

Post by Twilitez »

loopdon wrote:Man, listening on headphones they absolutely don't sound as i envisioned.
Will redo, sorry.
I listened to most of the samples and maybe theyre not very polished but i get the idea of what your doing there, pretty cool :)

Also stating the obvious, headphones do tend to change the listening experience quite a bit. Ive got a pair of sennheiser hd650's here which are supposed to be way better then my regular speakers but to me it usually sounds the other way around.

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Re: subsekt sound design school _ BASS

Post by Tobs »

o here's my go at it

i was listening to some dumbcode and after reading through the how to get that techno sound thread i decided to try and imitate the sound, training my skills...

I'm not really good with basses, and i'm using headphones. but don't be gentle :)

ps: thanks to mattias for the kick (your pack eheh)

so the bass is basically just a sine and a saw that's one octave above. the trick is the pitch envelope. a bit of filter envelope and sidechain compression and that's all.

the noises and effects i just took them from other tracks i did or just sylenth presets, didn't really worry to much about them...

you can hear the bass in isolation and with other stuff (with other shit i decided to fuck around with the bass pattern and filter eheh)

tell me if it sounds decent or not, please (i've never used headphones to do bass...)
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Creating heavy heavy heavy techno sub bass lines!

Post by -GeO- »

OK, so i know this topic has been beaten to death around this forum, but as producers i think we're all always enamored with the subject so here goes another thread...

So fist off, I've read some of the other posts on the topic, but none of them seem to fit the bill exactly for what I'm looking for. It seems everybody wants a "huge low end", but when i listen to the example tracks provided, they often aren't really that huge or difficult to produce for that matter. So perhaps what I'm looking for is more of an "advanced" conversation on the topic. Fist let's get to the "what I'm looking for SPECIFICALLY" part:

Basically most of my fav techno tracks are ones without traditional bass lines and are more of a kick/sub combo containing mostly all of the low energy in track. Some of the best productions i've heard in this genre tend to have an 808 style subby kick with a decay that almost (and sometimes does) linger into the next hit forming an almost continuous sub line. Think Christoper Leibing or Rebekah. Other times (more often perhaps) the kick is higher freq and is accompanied by a separate huge sub line like the Pfirter track below. Here's some great examples (hopefully you get the idea!):

Pfirter - Ahora https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH2VW-lvwBk
Rebekah - Asymmetric https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GflgBaQ_l8E
Kwartz - Hole https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hVJzRsUR74
Justin Schumacher - Gate (Audio Injection Remix) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KPB8lgYzAI

So the Pfirter track is a great example because the kick and sub are solo'd in the beginning so maybe we can focus on that. The super heavy sub line is layered with a high-pass filtered kick (that still has plenty of weight) and provides some punch to allow it to cut through the mix creating a sense of drive. The problem for me is often getting the sub elements to work right. For whatever reason, when i drop a kick with a long decay (808 style) or place a separate sub line under the kick, i have trouble with it requiring too much headroom in the mix. I end up with an overall lower volume or a quiet floppy low end without definition. I always try to filter the upper elements out of the sub and the super low stuff out of the kicks (usually 80hz and under). Still problems usually persist. In addition, that way of doing it seems to produce a lackluster sub which brings me to the next point...

The other thing i notice is that the sub lines often have harmonics to help them sound loud. Contrary to traditional theory, It's clearly not just a simple sine wave (correct me if i'm wrong). So how does one approach creating a massive sub line like that? That Pfirter track has a nicely swung pattern with lots of grit, volume and low energy. I've tried what feels like a thousand different ways, each with varying degrees of success. Because of the harmonics thing, my best results have been from filtering a complete track way down to just the sub elements and using that as a sub line in a new track. There are many problems with this however, not to mention it's not original work and doesn't often fit in a new track nicely. I've tried the traditional solutions like layering sine waves below my kicks but they never seem to have enough grit and adding harmonic distortion tends to distort too much. Also, they always sound a bit too quiet and pure. I wish Pfirter were in this forum to answer how he made that. Anyway, I've also tried the tricks Mattias suggested with sidechained reverb kicks. Those have worked pretty well for me, but i'm usually still struggling with clarity, volume and low end punch. I'm at the point where i'm wondering if it's my monitors or maybe i just need some expensive mastering gear?? After 10years of chasing this sound i can get close and fake it, but really want to explore how to do it right. I feel like it must be possible do this "in the box" and i won't quit till i figure it out lol!! I've got many soft synths to choose from and feel like Reaktor alone should be able to give me this sound. I've also got an Elektron Machinedrum but haven't had too much luck with recording low end elements from that (percs and hats are great though!!!). So I guess i would love to hear from those of you guys who are able do this with some consistency and are willing to share their "secret sauce". If i need to go out and by a new analog synth to get that sound, i will do it but i don't feel like throwing money at the problem will help fix it. I feel it must be a matter of proper eq, compression and general mastering technique. I've read full books on the subject and done countless tutorials. The funny thing is i just did a tutorial the other day where the engineer was discussing creating big kicks and layering, etc. At the end of the tutorial, the kicks sounded OK at best and was a far cry from the sound i'm looking for. I can already make a big sounding kicks, but it's creating an effective sub line and balancing the two that seems more important in this particular genre. So thanks in advance for your thoughts on the subject and let the games begin.... :D

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Re: Creating heavy heavy heavy techno sub bass lines!

Post by Planar »

I read all that and expected the Pfirter track to have some amazing, innovative bass line. It's just a reverb rumble. Try a convolution reverb, I find it gives better results. If it's sucking up your headroom you're probably making it too loud in the mix.

Really, it's been done to death on here and fairly recently as well, I don't think there's much else to say about it. Just practice and find your own take on the technique.

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Re: Creating heavy heavy heavy techno sub bass lines!

Post by Ttinga »

I'm no expert on this, but a couple things:

-I never really start with a sine sub. I agree you need more harmonics in the sub to make it sound right.
-I like to use source material for the sub that is completely different from the kick. As opposed to just using the reverb of the kick. It really can be anything, it's fun to mess around with random samples, filter em down or maybe overdrive the lower frequencies.
-Instead of trying to get the timing right on a sidechain compressor, sometimes it's easier just to move the audio file around visually in relation to the kick. For example, in the normal situation with a reverbed kick, you might print the reverbed kick to audio, reverse it, and then line that up in an arrangement view loop with the kick so that it fades into the kick.

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Re: Creating heavy heavy heavy techno sub bass lines!

Post by Críoch »

The power and the preciseness unsurprisingly resides in the processing. Pretty generic advice here, bI'm usually happy with the sound when I've applied the right amount of beefing up with badass compression / saturation and hit on the right EQ.

Agree with everything said already.. especially the keep at it to get your own take. Thats the best way. Understand that everyone has to remember to balance learning twisting knobs on a screen with following a online recipe that inherently alienates you from the process. You need to continue fucking around.
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Re: Creating heavy heavy heavy techno sub bass lines!

Post by willemb »

tl;dr
Planar wrote:Really, it's been done to death on here and fairly recently as well, I don't think there's much else to say about it. Just practice and find your own take on the technique.
http://subsekt.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4335 for example

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Re: Creating heavy heavy heavy techno sub bass lines!

Post by Lost to the Void »

This has been covered and covered and covered and covered here.

One simple method, take a kick, add reverb then some saturation, keep the reverb short, roll off a lot of the highs, maybe give a little boost somewhere between 60 and 120.

Add another kick for clarity over the top with a roll off from 60 down. Boom, job done, Bergein-arama.
Add hi hat, a chordal stab, drag the whole thing out for 6 minutes, release on CLR

Also resampling the big reverbed kick will then give you more control over the whole thing, ie tuning the release.

The trick is to use either compression or saturation to mash the verb into the kick
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Re: Creating heavy heavy heavy techno sub bass lines!

Post by Críoch »

(S)mash it up

Image
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Re: Creating heavy heavy heavy techno sub bass lines!

Post by Mono-xID »

Lost to the Void wrote:Add another kick for clarity over the top with a roll off from 60 down. Boom, job done, Bergein-arama.
Add hi hat, a chordal stab, drag the whole thing out for 6 minutes, release on CLR
This :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Creating heavy heavy heavy techno sub bass lines!

Post by arc »

-GeO- wrote:Think Christoper Leibing

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Re: Creating heavy heavy heavy techno sub bass lines!

Post by mainst09 »

Lost to the Void wrote:Add another kick for clarity over the top with a roll off from 60 down. Boom, job done, Bergein-arama.
Add hi hat, a chordal stab, drag the whole thing out for 6 minutes, release on CLR



hahahahhahahahhahahahahahha fuck sake :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Creating heavy heavy heavy techno sub bass lines!

Post by Hades »

mainst09 wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:Add another kick for clarity over the top with a roll off from 60 down. Boom, job done, Bergein-arama.
Add hi hat, a chordal stab, drag the whole thing out for 6 minutes, release on CLR



hahahahhahahahhahahahahahha fuck sake :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:P
well we can have a good laugh about it, but unfortunately it's the sad truth.
all that dark big room techno is getting so much on my nerves lately...
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Re: Creating heavy heavy heavy techno sub bass lines!

Post by ferramus »

Is there a big difference in using a punch and sub bass instead of just using a single long kick? Looks like you all use that technique, I've been making these type of kicks with EKS-9 by just making the decay and sustain long enough to make it to the next beat, then add an extra punch and reverb on the tail, then tweak it from there. Just wondering if I'm missing out on anything by doing it like this.
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Re: Creating heavy heavy heavy techno sub bass lines!

Post by Lost to the Void »

By splitting in to 2 you must get more control over the saturated mush down low, and the punch in the mids.
Quite often I just use a single kick treated right, like eks-9, but then you are restricted to a certain type of sound when using kicks with decays to take them to the next beat.
Those kind of kicks never have the thick punch you might always want as they will go "boomy" if you compress or saturate. Which may or may not be applicable.
Microtonic is a god send in this case as there is a lot of control of the noise envelope separate to the sine.
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Re: Creating heavy heavy heavy techno sub bass lines!

Post by LaurentOrchard »

Mono-xID wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:Add another kick for clarity over the top with a roll off from 60 down. Boom, job done, Bergein-arama.
Add hi hat, a chordal stab, drag the whole thing out for 6 minutes, release on CLR
This :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

hahahaha man!

But Really? There's no sidechaining involved in there? What i am generally doing is : Kick sample ---> high pass at 40ish ---> copy the chan, add short decay fully wet reverb reverb, side chained to the first dry kick channel. ----> group those 2 channels, put a compressor, satin, distortion, eq and whatnot on there ----> bergainarama.

What you basically do from what i understand is that you have a fully wet kick with a verb/comp/distortion so they glue together. They are not sidechained to anything.
And then you just layer a highpassed kick on top of it all to add clarity and punch ? Hum... I'll try this like now.


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