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 Post subject: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about it.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:24 am 
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So i'm devoting time to this topic for the next few days.

Polyrhythm - two or more different rhythms going on at the same time. In one hand, tap out 1 (2) 3 4, and in the other, do (1) &2 (3) & (4), where parentheses represent rests.

Cross-rhythm - a kind of polyrhythm that involves two or more conflicting divisions of the meter. The simplest is two beats against three. In one hand, do 1 2 3, and in the other, do 1 (2) & (3). This is the "Carol of the Bells" rhythm mentioned above. These are easiest to do as something against 2, like 5:2 - 1 2 3 4 5, 1 (2) (3) & (4) (5)

Polymeter - two or more distinct meters that do not occupy the same amount of space. Typically, they will share the same beat. Not always, however. Think of it as 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4, etc. with another instrument playing 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3, with the duration between the beats is the same, but the downbeats are not consistent.

If you into it, start here: http://blog.dubspot.com/electronic-musi ... c-devices/

here's midi of polyrhythm set up in Live: http://www.ageofthewheel.com/2011/03/eu ... ce-in.html

some of the music that's inspiring me:

Steevio really hits the nail on the head for me, in so many ways.

https://myspace.com/steevio/music/song/ ... 3-23367768

Dj Gregory is also rock solid.



I know these examples might be a bit deep for you guys, but it's my deep is my roots and what inspires my ambitions, a re-imagining of the classic genre. Throw some pure techno in the mix!

this is pretty good for those who are a bit clueless. Clearly shows it's place in dance music



If you lateral, this will give you some ideas on how it might appear in Techno...



and if you just want to fuck your head, watch this



Anyway, i'm interested in anything you might have to say on the topic. Got any inspirations? Any tips? Let 'em rip. Specifically I'm interested in more knowledge on Cross-rhythm. The most useful link I have is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-rhythm and it's killing me...

Best way i've heard it explained: Tap out three 4 beat bars with your right hand while tapping two 6 beat bars with your left. If they start and end at the same time, Boom, you win.

Polyrhythm: Theres 2 runners on a big ass oval track starting at the same time. One makes a lap exactly every 4 minutes, the other exactly every 3. So they meet back at the start at the same time after 12 minutes. In that time, 4 minute man has done 3 laps, but 3 minute man has done 4. So the simplest 3/4 over 4/4 polyrhythm takes 12 bars of 4/4.

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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:27 am 
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Ever since coming across polyrhythms earlier this year, I always use them. Although It's funny what I really discovered was that was the way I made stuff in my head. But it would never translate, when I tried to make it in a 4/4.

Now I always pay attention to how many beats I use in a bar. It's likely that if I use a synth pattern its not done 4/4. Also I try to break the cycle of changes in 4/8/16/32 bars. Try to also use multiples of 6/12/24/48. Because the good thing is that they overlap at points when coming together.

I feel along with EQing, this has been the most important thing for me to get my head around, since it can add natural or even disruptive rhytms depending on the intention.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:17 am 
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those techniques are apsolutely essential. ANother thing, I ve been thinking recently how I dont hear quintols in techno anymore, and came to conclusion that its most definitely down to the fact that our most favorite sequencer doesnt have that grid option. I mean quintols can really inject some nice groove into your drums, or anything really. On the other hand i dont think a todays producer is gonna be bothered to insert them manually, there are so many different things to experiment with at a click of a button. This gives me many philosophical questions to ponder about?
Recently I started switching to studio one for an unrelated issue I had with live and it was really nice to find those guys there- quintols, septols, they are all there. Cant wait to start sequncing some with my drumazon. Bring out the toms!


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:50 am 
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don_questo wrote:
those techniques are apsolutely essential. ANother thing, I ve been thinking recently how I dont hear quintols in techno anymore, and came to conclusion that its most definitely down to the fact that our most favorite sequencer doesnt have that grid option. I mean quintols can really inject some nice groove into your drums, or anything really. On the other hand i dont think a todays producer is gonna be bothered to insert them manually, there are so many different things to experiment with at a click of a button. This gives me many philosophical questions to ponder about?
Recently I started switching to studio one for an unrelated issue I had with live and it was really nice to find those guys there- quintols, septols, they are all there. Cant wait to start sequncing some with my drumazon. Bring out the toms!



What's a quintol?


I'll generally throw in a poly-rhythmic element into most of my tracks, but they tend to subtle. A quiet hat in the background or similar. I'm alway mucking around with lead sounds using it, but I never seem to get anything that I want to finish. It's good for inspiration. Yet again, I'm going to mention Tremor and it's sequencer... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:53 am 
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don_questo wrote:
its most definitely down to the fact that our most favorite sequencer doesn't have that grid option.


for sure, you have to stumble into live's ability to do polymeter. most guys probably don't even know it can be done with ease.

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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:54 am 
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Planar wrote:
What's a quintol?


i think he means quintuplets.

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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:33 pm 
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Planar wrote:
Yet again, I'm going to mention Tremor and it's sequencer... :roll:


That's where I got it from too. But to be honest the same theory applies in any DAW or sequencer. I just adjust the length of my clips in Live to suit what I'm after.

I'm generally in to this kind of riff making, and find it so good for creating that "odd" kind if rhythm.
I find one shot hits work really well in that way too.







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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:01 pm 
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ashley BORG wrote:
Planar wrote:
Yet again, I'm going to mention Tremor and it's sequencer... :roll:


That's where I got it from too. But to be honest the same theory applies in any DAW or sequencer. I just adjust the length of my clips in Live to suit what I'm after.

I'm generally in to this kind of riff making, and find it so good for creating that "odd" kind if rhythm.
I find one shot hits work really well in that way too.







None of those tunes show any example of polyrythm or polymeter. Some of them have loose grooves, but.......

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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:54 pm 
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OK Steve, well to my ears it does. Maybe you can show us an example.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:39 pm 
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ashley BORG wrote:
OK Steve, well to my ears it does. Maybe you can show us an example.


Count the beats.

1st tune, right at the beginning I just noticed the loop start is staggered a few times, so I guess that part is, but after that short little section, the main riff goes 4x4. Restarts 1st beat of every 4.

Regis tune is the same, main riff repeats 1st beat every bar

3rd tune, is fucking great, but there are no polymeters, everything repeats at the start of each bar, although some parts repeat every 2 bard.


Here`s a great example. Hardfloor are ALL about polyrthmic parts in layers.

Check out the rather legendary track Acperience.

The first 303 line is a 2 beat/half bar loop
Then the second 303 line is a 3 note loop (You start hearing it around 1:39)
(The later 3rd 303 repeats every 4 beats/1 time a bar)

the interaction between the two causes the track to have a forward energy. Classic trick.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:50 pm 
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I've heard that track countless times and I've never noticed that. Now I'm listening to it... mind blown...

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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:46 pm 
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Planar wrote:
I've heard that track countless times and I've never noticed that. Now I'm listening to it... mind blown...


+1 I have that on vinyl. Thanks for that Steve.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:51 am 
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don_questo wrote:
those techniques are apsolutely essential. ANother thing, I ve been thinking recently how I dont hear quintols in techno anymore, and came to conclusion that its most definitely down to the fact that our most favorite sequencer doesnt have that grid option. I mean quintols can really inject some nice groove into your drums, or anything really. On the other hand i dont think a todays producer is gonna be bothered to insert them manually, there are so many different things to experiment with at a click of a button. This gives me many philosophical questions to ponder about?
Recently I started switching to studio one for an unrelated issue I had with live and it was really nice to find those guys there- quintols, septols, they are all there. Cant wait to start sequncing some with my drumazon. Bring out the toms!


I stumbled across this video recently which explains how to easily create quintuplets (assuming that's the same thing) and more in Live. I've tried a couple of times and struggle to make this work in context.



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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:19 pm 
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bram2000 wrote:
don_questo wrote:
those techniques are apsolutely essential. ANother thing, I ve been thinking recently how I dont hear quintols in techno anymore, and came to conclusion that its most definitely down to the fact that our most favorite sequencer doesnt have that grid option. I mean quintols can really inject some nice groove into your drums, or anything really. On the other hand i dont think a todays producer is gonna be bothered to insert them manually, there are so many different things to experiment with at a click of a button. This gives me many philosophical questions to ponder about?
Recently I started switching to studio one for an unrelated issue I had with live and it was really nice to find those guys there- quintols, septols, they are all there. Cant wait to start sequncing some with my drumazon. Bring out the toms!


I stumbled across this video recently which explains how to easily create quintuplets (assuming that's the same thing) and more in Live. I've tried a couple of times and struggle to make this work in context.


That is CLEVER.
I think everyone that uses live should know this. Because really, quintuplets are heard less and less in music.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:31 pm 
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Well, its not too dj friendly, i did a lot of stuff with odd note lengths years ago, and its great in a tune, but as soon as you start mixing tunes dj style, it ends up really messy.

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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:48 pm 
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Lost to the Void wrote:
Well, its not too dj friendly, i did a lot of stuff with odd note lengths years ago, and its great in a tune, but as soon as you start mixing tunes dj style, it ends up really messy.

Why is that? I can understand if both tracks have them it would be messy, or if one had triplets...but apart from that, I dont see why that would be?


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:15 pm 
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Lost to the Void wrote:
Well, its not too dj friendly, i did a lot of stuff with odd note lengths years ago, and its great in a tune, but as soon as you start mixing tunes dj style, it ends up really messy.


Surely the art takes precedence over DJ friendliness? Anyway, if it's a really good tune a decent DJ will find a way... I suppose the other side of that coin is that if it's only OK the DJ will just pick something else.

Anyway, a good video Bram, another one of those, "obvious when you think about it", things to do. I'm definitely going to have a play around with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:33 am 
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Planar wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:
Well, its not too dj friendly, i did a lot of stuff with odd note lengths years ago, and its great in a tune, but as soon as you start mixing tunes dj style, it ends up really messy.


Surely the art takes precedence over DJ friendliness? Anyway, if it's a really good tune a decent DJ will find a way... I suppose the other side of that coin is that if it's only OK the DJ will just pick something else.

Anyway, a good video Bram, another one of those, "obvious when you think about it", things to do. I'm definitely going to have a play around with it.


Oh i agree, the art should take presidence, but it does sound messy in a mix. I play live so it is less of an issue for me, but back in the days when the 65d mavericks and oliver ho etc were making really warped out beats, although they got critical respect, no dj's were playing the tracks because they were hard to mix.
Thats more of a reflection of djs than the music of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:38 am 
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Lost to the Void wrote:
Well, its not too dj friendly, i did a lot of stuff with odd note lengths years ago, and its great in a tune, but as soon as you start mixing tunes dj style, it ends up really messy.


Aye, this is another reason why i prefer Traktor today. With some nice tricks and shit going on one can actually mix those cool odd ball tracks with other music without it sounding messy. I felt a lot of good tracks with polymorphic grooves and warped beats gets lost because it isn't playable on vinyl (mostly) back then.

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 Post subject: Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:21 pm 
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crazeehorse wrote:
These guys do it super well.




All tracing back to Steve Reich really.
The true originator of techno



Truly masterful, sends you into a trance.
Reich is my absolute hero.

You can learn a shitload from this video alone

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