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 Post subject: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:40 pm 
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washable

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Hello everyone,

Hope you're all doing well.
Just wanted to ask a quick question on how to mix pads and atmospheres in a context such this:





They both sound to me very deep and wide, almost enveloping the low frequencies (in case of example n.2).
Has anyone got any tips on how to make pads wide and sitting in the back?
I achieved similar results in terms of width in my latest works mostly with delays, M/S processing and filters (and of course reverb) but still working hard on the depth.
What I noticed is that very often those atmospheric elements interfere with other frequencies, is there a way to avoid that? I was thinking about phasing but I'm not sure if this is the right direction.

Thank you all in advance. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:28 pm 
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I can't listen to the examples right now, but perception of depth can be achieved with reverb. The wetter the reverb the deeper the depth. Think about how something sounds in the background in a real space.

Regarding frequency clashes, EQ is your primary tool, but with the lows cutting more in the mid than the side can keep that widened sound. Remember to keep the very lows mono. With very dynamic atmospheres I've found sidechaining certain frequencies that clash with another element (like a kick) can help and sounds transparent, you need a multiband comp or dynamic EQ with a sidechain input to do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:16 am 
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I agree 100% with Planar. I would just say that you shouldn't think about your pad/ pads just only one piece of your sounds/work. I usually layer my own pads with different frequency range of its own source or with completely difference sound. The "needed" or hunted depth is usually acquired with the right amount of reverb, layers and return tracks (at least in ableton). The right amount of stereo widespread is potentional too in my opinion. Keep experimenting with different soft sounds to add subtle harmonics to your actual pad. These are the tings I could give you as opinion/thoughts

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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:47 pm 
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Agree with 0xa and Planar on use of reverb for perception of depth and eq, stereo widespread, layering same pad tracks with diff processing/pannings.

Only suggestion I can add is mid/side eq or stereo left/right eqing if you're using ableton eq8 are very good tools that add width to a track. Experiment with that maybe.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:04 pm 
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This is a technique i like a lot, maybe it could be usefull to you :)

http://mixcoach.com/creating-depth-the-haas-effect-2/

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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:27 pm 
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washable

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Thank you Planar, Oxa and Koichi, those were very useful informations. I'll try to experiment different combinations of reverbs and delays. I'm also trying to achieve better results with mid side and eq in general.
I guess this is something that takes time to achieve and sometimes I tend to overcomplicate things.
Thanks a lot Daunzila, that was a good read, I use echoboy very often to achieve similar results, will experiment for sure.

Cheers guys, if anyone else has other tips to share would be much appreciated. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:22 am 
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the way our ears work and the way that sound travels through the atomospheere, makes mid level freqencies the last freqencies that are able to be heard as the human ear moves further and further away from the sound source.....because the lowest freqs and the highest roll off fastest as the human ear moves further and further away. those freqs dissipate in the friction of the air particles etc...........so to make a sound sit really far back in the mix...cut off its highs and lows...and this usually why your pads will end up being a low and high cut+

on another note, i didnt we were allowed to use pads in techno.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:18 am 
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soulstar606 wrote:
the way our ears work and the way that sound travels through the atomospheere, makes mid level freqencies the last freqencies that are able to be heard as the human ear moves further and further away from the sound source.....because the lowest freqs and the highest roll off fastest as the human ear moves further and further away. those freqs dissipate in the friction of the air particles etc...........so to make a sound sit really far back in the mix...cut off its highs and lows...and this usually why your pads will end up being a low and high cut+

on another note, i didnt we were allowed to use pads in techno.


What are you on about.
Bass waves have more energy and a longer wavelength and require much more interference to remove that energy, and it is bass waves that are the last frequencies we hear. The only problem is directionality, when the wavelength is greater than the distance between our ears, we can't accurately locate the source.

Approach any outdoor rave, you will hear the kickdrums and subs before anything else.

To make some sound really distant you just roll off the highs and maybe add reverb.
Take a tune and gently roll all the way down to 100hz, it will sound like you are leaving a rave.

Get your science right before making scientific statements about friction in air particles,

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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:43 pm 
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it's the inverse of the fletch munson effect.... i agree that in real life you hear the lows from far away but thats not what were talking about...were talking about pads..and creating a sense of depth../when someone is listening to a recording....usually on headphones or a speakers....you need to create the illuision of distance....and to do this, you need to roll off the lows....i dont about you but i make trance and i've never made a pad....that doesnt have a huge low and hicut on it.....
https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb09/ ... pspace.htm
Quote:
EQ For Distance

If you want to place something at the back of the mix, it not only needs to be quieter than the up‑front sounds: it also needs to have less top end, to emulate the way air absorbs high frequencies. You may also want to roll off some low‑end below 150 to 200Hz, to enhance the illusion of distance. If the instrument in question was recorded using a microphone, using a greater mic distance at the recording stage may also help cement the illusion.

http://getthatprosound.com/hacking-your ... our-music/
Quote:
5. Equal Loudness Part II: Fletcher-Munson Strikes Back

Of course the inverse of the closer/louder affect of the ears non-linear response is also true, and equally useful for mix purposes: to make things appear further away, instead of boosting you roll off the extreme highs and lows. This will create a sense of front-to-back depth in a mix, pushing certain supporting instruments into the imaginary distance and keeping the foreground clear for the lead elements.

This and the previous trick work because a key way that our ears interpret how far away we are from a sound source is by the amount of high- and low-frequency energy present relative to the broader mid-range content. This is all because the ears have adapted to take into account the basic physics of our gaseous Earth atmosphere: beyond very short distances the further any sound travels, the more high-frequency energy (and to a slightly lesser extent, extreme low-end as well) will simply be dissipated into the air, the atmosphere it’s travelling through.

Therefore, to push a sound further back in the mix, try rolling off varying amounts of its higher frequencies and hear it recede behind the other elements. This is often particularly useful for highlighting a lead vocal in front of a host of backing vocals (cut the BVs above around 10kHz, possibly boost the lead vocal in the same range slightly). I also find it useful when EQing drum submixes to ensure the drums are overall punchy but not too in-your-face frontal (a touch of reverb is also an option here of course).

http://www.emusician.com/how-to/1334/tw ... akes/38286
Quote:
Again, the reason may be that you're listening at too loud a level while making EQ decisions. That's a problem because the human ear is subject to the Fletcher-Munson effect. In plain English, this means the ear is much less sensitive to bass and high frequencies when listening at low volumes than at high volumes. (Many consumer stereos have a Bass Loudness button to compensate for this reduced sensitivity to bass frequencies at low listening levels.) Ear fatigue aside, if you adjust EQ to taste while monitoring at loud levels, your mix might not sound sparkly and thunderous enough once the playback level is turned down.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:23 pm 
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https://www.google.com/search?num=50&ne ... 58&bih=536
inverse of the fletcher munson effect

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:43 pm 
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http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/equal_l ... ntours/P1/

Quote:
These curves make at least a little more sense. Take a look at the top one, the 120 dB SPL Hearing Response curve. It’s flat from 1 kHz. down to 200, and rolls off fairly steeply below that, ending up some 12 dB down at 50 Hz. and 30 dB down at 20 Hz. Above 1 kHz., there is a broad peak (1.7 octaves wide) centered at 3200 Hz., with a steep rolloff above that that includes a little plateau. Our hearing appears to be down approximately 40 dB at 20 kHz.

Welcome to the the comparatively crummy response of our hearing system.

Note that low frequency rolloff gets progressively worse as levels get softer, so that by the time we’re down to the 10 dB SPL Response curve, our Hearing Response at 20 Hz. is almost 70 dB down! Really shabby!


Image

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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:54 pm 
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Front to back mix depth has nothing to do with reality or distance.
It's a perceptual illusion, about placing sounds on, in front, or behind the speakers.



Now on physical speakers the bass will roll of at low levels (and this is what is being emulated here) due to less amplification to drive the speakers correctly.

Part of that quoted article is correct, the stuff about high end, the rest is really old fashioned bullshit.


Here is a graph of the attenuation of sound at difference frequencies (accounting for atmospheric pressure and humidity):

Image

As you can see, low frequencies are not absorbed as well. This means low frequencies will travel farther. So I don't know what air particles you are talking about. Magic trance monkey air particles?

Another effect that affects sound propagation, especially through walls, headphones, and other relative hard surfaces is reflection. Reflection is also frequency dependent. High frequencies are better reflected whereas low frequencies are able to pass through the barrier:

This is and frequency-based attenuation are why low-frequency sounds are much easier to hear through walls than high frequency ones.

With headphones you can start applying fletcher Munson, but this is more to do with amplification.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_attenuation

The problem is that you trance monkeys roll the lows off of everything.

It's like noddy goes to toy town at trance parties..

This little plink plonk kick drums and those donk da da donk high-bass bass lines.

I can picture the fluoro trousers, natural fibre caftans and beaded white man dreadlocks already.

The horror

The horror.


There is a simple experiment you can conduct.
Put your music on at a reasonable level (because we are not talking about low spl rolloff here)
And then go in to another room, or out into the garden.
You will hear the bass long after all the mid and high frequency stuff muffles out.

Unless of course the music you are playing is trance, then you will hear nothing, because trance is fweeble and the sound waves actually commit suicide before they leave the room out of the sheer despair.

Actually, if you are making trance music, leave the room, then leave the house, then just keep walking........ Never look back, just keep going.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:48 pm 
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Do you have to be rude in every post? You come across as a bit of a thinks-he-knows-it-all, better-than-everyone dick. Just answer the question and leave the childish attitudes behind.


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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:43 pm 
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aledotm wrote:
Hello everyone,

Hope you're all doing well.
Just wanted to ask a quick question on how to mix pads and atmospheres in a context such this:





They both sound to me very deep and wide, almost enveloping the low frequencies (in case of example n.2).
Has anyone got any tips on how to make pads wide and sitting in the back?
I achieved similar results in terms of width in my latest works mostly with delays, M/S processing and filters (and of course reverb) but still working hard on the depth.
What I noticed is that very often those atmospheric elements interfere with other frequencies, is there a way to avoid that? I was thinking about phasing but I'm not sure if this is the right direction.

Thank you all in advance. :)


I did forget to answer the question.

Nothing really secret happening in these examples.
Lots of reverb and delay essentially.

Frequency interference is down to EQ work mainly.
Mid-Side does help a lot, you can push pads out wide (of course they do have to have side content in the first place, so you can add chorus or some micro delay, or reverb to add more side information) with M/S and keep the drums in the centre.
If you want really thick pads, which Dozzy does sometimes, M/S can help as you can still retain some (high) bass in the pads, but push them wide of the drums, and EQ out the lows in the middle.
This type of stuff doesn`t have very thick percussion in the mids, so there is a lot of room for big swishy wooshy pads.
Reverb naturally increases distance, so you want to be using Hall, Large Chamber type algorythms.

It`s all in how you create your space. Subtractive EQ is the answer to (most) problems.

Also, to create more distance in your mix, you can have your drums much more dry so they sit on or in front of the speakers, that way you`ll create more difference between the centre and side elements.

Another way to get pesky frequencies out of the way is to use sidechaining before your reverb (and possibly delays) on the pads, so the effect is slightly masked, retaining the continuity of the pads/atmos.

Oh and also

great big cunt flapping in the wind like a fucking wind sock.



because I do have to be rude in every post.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:56 am 
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innovine wrote:
Do you have to be rude in every post? You come across as a bit of a thinks-he-knows-it-all, better-than-everyone dick. Just answer the question and leave the childish attitudes behind.


Oh just leave him be mate. There's no point to argue as this is his little pub and if you don't like what he is saying you'll get thrown out or told to fuck off. Its really unfortunate as this place could have been real benefit for the techno community, it's too late now as the damage is done...


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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:56 am 
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Ploy wrote:
innovine wrote:
Do you have to be rude in every post? You come across as a bit of a thinks-he-knows-it-all, better-than-everyone dick. Just answer the question and leave the childish attitudes behind.


Oh just leave him be mate. There's no point to argue as this is his little pub and if you don't like what he is saying you'll get thrown out or told to fuck off. Its really unfortunate as this place could have been real benefit for the techno community, it's too late now as the damage is done...

all instances of communication by humans are usually either....A a loving response.. or B a cry for help...

speaking of techno forums this isn't the only one...clearly....it was the first one that popped up in a google search thats why i signed up ....some of the users here are just thhhsooooo mean :cry: life isthhhhh wayyy to short to be mean all the time!!!!! guyzzzthhhhhhhhhh!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:42 am 
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Quote:
The problem is that you trance monkeys roll the lows off of everything.


well...after youve mixed trance for a while..or any bassy music actually...you realize that too much low end is really tiring on someones ears....and theres a difference between making something BOOMY and huge bass for the sake of trying to be BOOMY and huge bass..(i used to do this)...VS making a listenable nice sounding recording.....not to mention that the more energy and voltage you consume on the low end, the less energy you have to spread out to the rest of your mix.....by lowering and low cutting the low end you can create a much bigger soundscape and have a much huger platform for sounds to breathe on

you only have so much voltage to spread out in your gainstaging arena....

but i still dont know why you wont understand that pads do not have any low end..(or you do and you just arent acknowledgin it?)... you should know that you never leave much of anything below about 150-200 hZ in any pads.....if you want some bass with the pad then you would make a separate track for that.....

my pad's EQ always looks like a horses saddle...basically nothing on the left or right and then kind of a dip in the center..looks like a camels hump....

this is what my usual starting point for any pad track looks like on the EQ

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:27 am 
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soulstar606 wrote:
you realize that too much low end is really tiring on someones ears....


Too much high end is far more fatiguing to the ears. Plenty of genres are dominated by bass.

soulstar606 wrote:
you should know that you never leave much of anything below about 150-200 hZ in any pads


Having mixing "rules" like this are silly; it's entirely dependent on context.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:18 am 
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What works always for me: opening voxengo msed, than turn down the mid signal - problem solved, nice wide sound...

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 Post subject: Re: Mixing pads and atmospheres.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:22 am 
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And I use proximity to create the illusion of distance...proximity is the secret weapon for depht and it has also a cool lfo on it for subtle modulations

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