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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:04 pm 
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TR
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It's been below par for a while...
Always thought that the acceptance of electronic music, that you can find elsewhere, seemed slower to develop here but maybe I'm wrong.
I've lost interest in it to an extent, not paying it as much attention anymore.
Probably just being grumpy! ..


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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:02 pm 
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Hi guys, I had a few questions about performing live with ableton and I thought that it would be better to bump up this thread than to start a new one.

First, here's a small description of my set up : laptop running Live 9, novation launchpad and launch control
quite limited as you can see but from what I read in this thread it is not a bad thing.

All the sounds are made in ableton and I only use a few plugins. I was thinking of playing each track separetly and draw the next one from a folder,
make the transition and quickly remove the tracks I won't use again.
This way I'd have a clearer view of what I can play and I won't be lost in too many clips at the same time.

My main question is this : Should I put some effects on the master channel ?
wich parameters are critical to make all the tracks fit together (eq? compression?) ?
How can I make it sound loud enough to fit with dj sets ? How to handle tempo changes ( sound-wise) ?

I can rehearse on the sound-system that will be running at the gig so that should be an advantage
to fix sound-related issues (compensating that I have absolutely no monitoring when I created the tracks)

But also I would like to hear what are you experiences of live performance (with any kind of setup) so we can discuss it in a more general way.

I have to play this live set in three weeks now so I'll probably will go my own way for this time and see the results but any advice is welcome for future perfomances.

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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:23 pm 
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Personally I used eq and limiter on master track for livesets. Especially as you can soundcheck on the soundsystem in the space you can do some useful eq.

Making it loud enough to compare to DJ sets depends on the audio/volumes of synths you're using or have created - use some released tracks you love the sound of as a reference for volume of mastered tracks.
Also, as you are able to soundcheck, can you not just get the system turned up when you play to compensate volume?

- you had no monitoring when making the tracks?? That's probably gonna be a big problem then...

Most recent live set setup: TR8, moog minitaur (for sub/bass), access virus into mixing desk, ableton live with parts of tracks exported into clips on two channels. so I have 3 tracks on the desk for tr8, virus, minitaur, then two tracks for ableton track (my exports of parts of my music I'm using - I have a multioutput soundcard)
I use the desk to mix between the two channels of my loop exports (like djing), and synth/drum machine tracks, and fx sends (guitar pedals).
There is lots I can do on this set up - drum machine, synth modulation, fx pedals - but also it's safe (if anything goes wrong) as I'm using loops exported from Ableton.
One thing I'd say is practice a lot. Maybe it takes away from the whole thing of "live" music making, improvisation, but I like to practice my set a lot - and because I feel comfortable with the set structure I'm freer to do more improv stuff on the tr8/synths.

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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:28 pm 
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victer wrote:
Hi guys, I had a few questions about performing live with ableton and I thought that it would be better to bump up this thread than to start a new one.

First, here's a small description of my set up : laptop running Live 9, novation launchpad and launch control
quite limited as you can see but from what I read in this thread it is not a bad thing.

All the sounds are made in ableton and I only use a few plugins. I was thinking of playing each track separetly and draw the next one from a folder,
make the transition and quickly remove the tracks I won't use again.
This way I'd have a clearer view of what I can play and I won't be lost in too many clips at the same time.

My main question is this : Should I put some effects on the master channel ?
wich parameters are critical to make all the tracks fit together (eq? compression?) ?
How can I make it sound loud enough to fit with dj sets ? How to handle tempo changes ( sound-wise) ?

I can rehearse on the sound-system that will be running at the gig so that should be an advantage
to fix sound-related issues (compensating that I have absolutely no monitoring when I created the tracks)

But also I would like to hear what are you experiences of live performance (with any kind of setup) so we can discuss it in a more general way.

I have to play this live set in three weeks now so I'll probably will go my own way for this time and see the results but any advice is welcome for future perfomances.


Hi Victer,

I also use a Ableton 9 /Novation LaunchPad/ Novation Launch Control XL and Control wired in to a Novation Audio Hub but I have only really mixed tracks I bought.
Do you mean you want mix stems of your work?eg - bass, kick , drums, synths ? I messed around once with a channel for stems/loops but never really went any further so technically I can't really comment on how you should do this.

Personally I wouldn't have effects on the master I have the same ones setup on each channel along with an EQ3 and Limiter that only catches extreme peaks. All my EQs are restricted my macro settings Max - Min to my taste.

I think you need to work on the sounds a little more if its stems/loops polish them up freeze/flatten and warped* to a certain BPM you shouldn't really have too much change in tempo personally I wouldn't go near that at all unless I was mixing vinyl and I start slightly slower and finish off a little faster.

*Warping is key to mixing anything in ableton

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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:24 pm 
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victer wrote:
My main question is this : Should I put some effects on the master channel ?

wich parameters are critical to make all the tracks fit together (eq? compression?) ?

How can I make it sound loud enough to fit with dj sets ? How to handle tempo changes ( sound-wise) ?


Let me answer in order.

Yes, I always mixed in to a compressor when I played live with ableton (which I did for 11 years). It will give you some gel, some extra groove, and it will push your levels up.
Also EQ is important so you can tune to the bias of the room and the soundsystem. A limiter too. (Just in case only to catch wayward peaks).
I also used a few bits to enhance the overall sound (saturation).

2nd question. EQ and compression, for reasons explained above.

3rd question already answered, but also, a decent sound card is needed to give you hot levels.

Finally, I always mapped a controller to temp with a 10bpm range so I could raise or lower the tempo of a set gently.
If I was doing wild tempo changes I would do so during ambient parts or breakdowns.

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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:19 am 
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if boards are your thing, bro...
http://livepa.org/

actually spot on advice if you troll through their forums. not just techno, however.. some of it is just plain weird shit. which offers a different perspective.

i second a lot of stuff on this thread already. been putting together a live pa for about a year or more, and i can't stress this enough, practice transitions. transitions is what makes your live set. any fool can come up with a loop.. but to make it flow. that's where the real originality comes into play. so find your way of doing that. i think the less advice the better, because often if you're doing things by someone else's standards, you'll not find your way or value your methods.

i think a lot of live pa these days is like how DJing used to be. there were no videos on how to dj. people just figured it out and everyone had their own style. and with live PA there's so many different ways to make a set and not too many of them are wrong. it all depends on where you can take it.

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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:45 pm 
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seanocean wrote:
i think the less advice the better, because often if you're doing things by someone else's standards, you'll not find your way or value your methods.

i think a lot of live pa these days is like how DJing used to be. there were no videos on how to dj. people just figured it out and everyone had their own style. and with live PA there's so many different ways to make a set and not too many of them are wrong. it all depends on where you can take it.

Very rewarding and much satisfaction comes from that too. Great way of putting it - hadn't thought of it like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:17 am 
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Thank you all for your replies, lot of interresting things I need to try :) !

Quote:
so find your way of doing that. i think the less advice the better, because often if you're doing things by someone else's standards, you'll not find your way or value your methods.


I think you're totally right... That's why i'm asking here on the forum.
I know i won't get very specific answers so I can use that advice in my own way and I know you guys mostly push people to find their own sound and methods.
Video tutorials with the launchpad are mostly finger drumming practices, wich I won't bother with since I own an electronic drum kit :)
- Note to self : I should use that in my live set up : if anybody have any experience with this, I'd like to ask him a few questions.

Quote:
Yes, I always mixed in to a compressor when I played live with ableton (which I did for 11 years). It will give you some gel, some extra groove, and it will push your levels up.
Also EQ is important so you can tune to the bias of the room and the soundsystem. A limiter too. (Just in case only to catch wayward peaks).
I also used a few bits to enhance the overall sound (saturation).

2nd question. EQ and compression, for reasons explained above.

3rd question already answered, but also, a decent sound card is needed to give you hot levels.

Finally, I always mapped a controller to temp with a 10bpm range so I could raise or lower the tempo of a set gently.
If I was doing wild tempo changes I would do so during ambient parts or breakdowns.


Thanks for this spot on advice. It's really helpful and quite what I suspected so I will try different things and maybe get back here if I have more questions.

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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:25 am 
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victer wrote:
Thank you all for your replies, lot of interresting things I need to try :) !

Quote:
so find your way of doing that. i think the less advice the better, because often if you're doing things by someone else's standards, you'll not find your way or value your methods.


I think you're totally right... That's why i'm asking here on the forum.
I know i won't get very specific answers so I can use that advice in my own way and I know you guys mostly push people to find their own sound and methods.
Video tutorials with the launchpad are mostly finger drumming practices, wich I won't bother with since I own an electronic drum kit :)
- Note to self : I should use that in my live set up : if anybody have any experience with this, I'd like to ask him a few questions.

Quote:
Yes, I always mixed in to a compressor when I played live with ableton (which I did for 11 years). It will give you some gel, some extra groove, and it will push your levels up.
Also EQ is important so you can tune to the bias of the room and the soundsystem. A limiter too. (Just in case only to catch wayward peaks).
I also used a few bits to enhance the overall sound (saturation).

2nd question. EQ and compression, for reasons explained above.

3rd question already answered, but also, a decent sound card is needed to give you hot levels.

Finally, I always mapped a controller to temp with a 10bpm range so I could raise or lower the tempo of a set gently.
If I was doing wild tempo changes I would do so during ambient parts or breakdowns.


Thanks for this spot on advice. It's really helpful and quite what I suspected so I will try different things and maybe get back here if I have more questions.



Ye I think finding a way that works for you is key here.
Novation products and Ableton help you build your environment to suit yourself. I have recreated a DJM600 essentially as that's the mixer I used for years.

Try different things start small add-on think about how it could work and test it.

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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:28 am 
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http://global.novationmusic.com/launch/launch-control-xl#

The Control XL is a beaut for this type of setup also the Audio Hub sits in nicely to this setup.

http://us.novationmusic.com/accessories/audiohub-2x4#

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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 7:49 am 
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victer wrote:
since I own an electronic drum kit :)
- Note to self : I should use that in my live set up : if anybody have any experience with this, I'd like to ask him a few questions.


I have a roland TD-12 which I've used in a live set, so ask away!
I mostly use it in the studio, since its a big bit of gear to drag around, but still I have it set up to play very much in a live pa/jamming style.


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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:59 pm 
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I have the Td-9, wich I bought many years ago before getting into electronic music.
I just used it to practice without having the whole neighbourhood on my back...
Didn't used it much since I got into techno, sadly.

So I do not have any specific questions really because I did not really tried to use it with what I do nowadays
but I'd like to know how you set it up and how you use it ( as midi controler ?
do you use factory sounds or new ones, etc)
I should at least sample it but that seems like a long process... Any advice on that ?

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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:27 pm 
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I mostly use mine for jungle/breakbeat stuff. I have a yamaha multi 12 pad also which I mostly use as a controller, hitting the pads triggers sequences (bassline and pads, sometimes shakers and hihat loops too) which I then jam along to. A big part of it for me is to get a really nice feel and response from the drums. Just triggering a sample feels really dead, so I spend a lot of time working with samplers trying to take advantage of the positional sensing and creating velocity maps etc. It's a lot of work!
I use the vh-11 hihat and native module sounds, since its really really hard to get a sampler to handle the closing and partially open states of the hihat like the module does it. I'm utterly sick of the module snare sounds so that's always sampled now. I rarely bother sampling the module, since i'm bored of the module sounds, but if you were thinking of going that way, I'd be inclined to set up a sequence of notes in a sequencer with the velocities at 31, 63, 95 and 127 and a nice long pause between them, then feed that to the module with midi and sample the output, then transpose the sequence to get the next drum sound. You could probably have a whole sequence for triggering the whole kit and just record one audio file and throw it into recycle or something afterwards.
I haven't used a factory kit in years tho. Get some of the vexpressions kits, they are far better than the roland factory patches. Not sure what the options for that is on the td-9 but they were a big improvement over the cheesy factory sounds for me. I still use some of the vexpression kits for rock and metal (i play guitar aswell).
Sometimes I'll overdub hihats and ride patterns onto techno tracks. To be honest though, I'd be pretty bored playing techno on it. Jungle is where it's at for playing. Breakbeat, dubstep, some downtempo, trip hop, all that can be fun to play, especially if you like working with samplers too, but there's not much challenge in a drum kit for techno.


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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:34 pm 
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So I am revisiting this in 2016, well actually actively starting to start forging a sound, rehearse, and basically all that has been said up above.

I've come up with the setup I want to run and I thought it would be wise to ask for tips and tricks and ofcourse some suggestions are welcome as well.

So:

The Machinedrum: The "heart" of the setup will be the machinedrum. It will contain the actual grooves(i was thinking about 8-10 kits max), it will mainly contain the kicks, which will take some time to all synthesize(but that's fun:) and it will contain some hihats and also some real machinedrum percussive madness including para locks. I want to limit each kit to a handful of sounds, all the kits should have the same kind of setup to keep things organized and rational.

The Analog four: The analog four will be the provide the atmosphere of the liveset. Meaning it will consist of the bass, the arp's and all kind of synthy stuff. I'd also like to use one track of the A4 for pad, dronelikestuff to glue everything together. The a4 will be connected to a laptop via overdrive meaning that I will be able to setup the 4 individual tracks in ableton and setup an FX rack for each of them. Again each track will have a specifik function troughout all the kits, so for example trk1 will always be bass, trk2 will always be atmos, and track 3 will always be some kind of rythm/arp.

The TR8: The TR8 will have a very different function than the elektrons. As the elektrons are purely based on reason, structure and planning the TR8 will provide the play factor Steve mentioned earlier. The people who own one of these know that it is really easy to use, hence this function in the setup. It will be playing more atmospheric related percussion like delayed and reverbed claves, hihats that are all over the place etc etc. The main function is again to glue the mix together and be able to play with the grooves that the elektrons provide.
The toms of the TR8 will be routed into the A4 for processing and will be accessible in ableton via overbridge. The hihats, claves and just the more midhigh frequency elements will be routed into the a4 as well and will be given an fx chain in ableton including some modulation to keep things evolving. though i will also be able to process them with the A4's built in Fx and filter.

The DAW: Ableton will provide me with some tribal percussive loops that I can bring in on the fly, this will be needed as I'm not sure yet how interesting I can keep the liveset with only the 3 machines for 60 minutes. Also will ableton provide some soundscapes if needed. The idea of ableton clips is to use it as a transition between dead moments in the set, fro example when i'm changing kits or whatever.

Last but not least

The Multiclock: The Multiclock will be my backbone, with it's 4 midi outputs and its extremely tight sync to Ableton I will have to worries about being out of sync, I will also be able to add some shuffle on the fly if needed. With use of the Multiclock I can indeed add elements from ableton with no worries at all.


Connections:

TR8 HH, claves etc (volume, pitch, trigs) --> A4 input left/right (fx, filter) --> Ableton (incl fx rack etc)
TR8 toms (volume, pitch, trigs) --> A4 input left/right (fx, filter) --> Ableton (incl compression to taste)

Machinedrum --> audio interface

A4 --> USB overbridge --> each track individual in ableton inclusing those of the TR8 (incl fx rack to all)






Mind you I have to fill in everything make all the kits and synthesize all the drums, pads, bleeps and blops, but I like to have an overall idea of the the fuck i am doing.


Soooooo, any ideas, is this a solid setup? add some pedals, remove some gear do this do that? I'm open for all ideas also as a listener, if i make it work what would you think?

I want this setup to sound different than my productions, more raw and uncontrolled. though I still wand the same essence and storyline.

if you made it untill here thanks for reading:)

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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:11 pm 
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I read this twice and well.. I have to admit that you planned this setup pretty nicely. At this point, as far as I'm concerned, just do it and you will see what's missing. It looks really promising, can't give constructive ideas to this.

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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:21 pm 
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This sounds good it's definitely good having a nice combination of hardware and software as I think it's very difficult to keep it interesting just with machines with only two hands!


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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:37 pm 
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Alume wrote:
So I am revisiting this in 2016, well actually actively starting to start forging a sound, rehearse, and basically all that has been said up above.

I've come up with the setup I want to run and I thought it would be wise to ask for tips and tricks and ofcourse some suggestions are welcome as well.
...
Soooooo, any ideas, is this a solid setup? add some pedals, remove some gear do this do that?


There is of course no right and wrong, but since you asked for suggestions, I would do a couple of things differently. I'd use the TR8 to lay down the meat and potatoes of the beats. On top of that, I'd use the MD for more out there, off beat creative stuff. It's a lot more capable of creating variations and twists and mutations and I think that'd work well over the TR8, not the other way around. I know many people use the MD as the core of their set, but they are making minimal techno so fuck them. The MD isnt weighty enough to carry the show IMHO.

The only point of your laptop is to sequence the A4 and to play a few loops, so I'd ditch it and the multiclock in favour of an mpc1000. It's a really solid sequencer, and can fire off all the samples and loops you need. I'd feel very happy avoiding all the sync and stability issues that come with ableton.

The output from the MD is probably a bit dry, so running everything into a mixing desk with a few sends to some effects (or inbuilt effects) would be the final bit for me. TR8, MD, MPC, A4 and a mixer is a good bit of kit. I'd drop the MD if trying to scale it down further, but that would depend a lot on the type of music you wanna do. Dropping the TR8 for some good samples on the MPC would be another variation.

Quote:
also as a listener, if i make it work what would you think?


I can't speak for other listeners, but personally I am sick to death of laptops and ableton and have no interest in it. Especially in your case, where it's not even doing anything. Have some balls and show what you can do without it, is my suggestion. Ableton makes it all safe and easy, and terribly fucking boring. Its not like techno is even challenging to make, so wrapping it all in boring old safe ableton is just depressing. The more chances you have of trainwrecking your set, the more live you are, and the more interested I get. That's what I pay to see, of course, someone on the edge of trainwrecking it all yet managing to improvise a wicked change to save the day.


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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:12 pm 
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innovine wrote:
Alume wrote:
So I am revisiting this in 2016, well actually actively starting to start forging a sound, rehearse, and basically all that has been said up above.

I've come up with the setup I want to run and I thought it would be wise to ask for tips and tricks and ofcourse some suggestions are welcome as well.
...
Soooooo, any ideas, is this a solid setup? add some pedals, remove some gear do this do that?


There is of course no right and wrong, but since you asked for suggestions, I would do a couple of things differently. I'd use the TR8 to lay down the meat and potatoes of the beats. On top of that, I'd use the MD for more out there, off beat creative stuff. It's a lot more capable of creating variations and twists and mutations and I think that'd work well over the TR8, not the other way around. I know many people use the MD as the core of their set, but they are making minimal techno so fuck them. The MD isnt weighty enough to carry the show IMHO.

The only point of your laptop is to sequence the A4 and to play a few loops, so I'd ditch it and the multiclock in favour of an mpc1000. It's a really solid sequencer, and can fire off all the samples and loops you need. I'd feel very happy avoiding all the sync and stability issues that come with ableton.

The output from the MD is probably a bit dry, so running everything into a mixing desk with a few sends to some effects (or inbuilt effects) would be the final bit for me. TR8, MD, MPC, A4 and a mixer is a good bit of kit. I'd drop the MD if trying to scale it down further, but that would depend a lot on the type of music you wanna do. Dropping the TR8 for some good samples on the MPC would be another variation.

Quote:
also as a listener, if i make it work what would you think?


I can't speak for other listeners, but personally I am sick to death of laptops and ableton and have no interest in it. Especially in your case, where it's not even doing anything. Have some balls and show what you can do without it, is my suggestion. Ableton makes it all safe and easy, and terribly fucking boring. Its not like techno is even challenging to make, so wrapping it all in boring old safe ableton is just depressing. The more chances you have of trainwrecking your set, the more live you are, and the more interested I get. That's what I pay to see, of course, someone on the edge of trainwrecking it all yet managing to improvise a wicked change to save the day.


Hey man, I can understand where you are coming from but I have to disagree on the the tr8/MD situation. I think the Md is fairly more capable the int tr8 imo. I get that it might be better for some improv and your right I will do that on the md as well.

I understand you point on the liveset ableton situation too, but i have to say that i have never gigged before, not even as a sync dj, so I think its ok for me have some additional loops. Its not like I'll be playing back my tracks, the set has to be a story on its own. And everything will be written for that purpose only.

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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:29 pm 
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i like the idea of your setup Alume, it sounds like it has a lot of potential, but i also like Innovines suggestions.

i have a tr-8 and it is boss for playing, but its sounds are limited, and they sound like 909's and 808's. (nothing wrong with that, i like them, but they might get repetitive). i thought similar to innovine about getting a sampler to play back, so you could have a limitless range of sounds to play instead of the limited roland sounds.

there is always Maschine as an alternative to a sampler/mpc, it has a step sequencer and can record live playing, can have 16 channels out from it into separate channels in Live.

i get why you want to run it through Live and use Live as a mixer, so that you can add effects and so on.

One thing that i don't know about is if there is any latency with the tr-8 if you have something going through its External In, into the computer with tr-8 sounds via usb, back out via usb and out through the outs.

sounds like a good setup, i wouldn't mind playing on something like that


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 Post subject: Re: Live set | Tips&Tricks | Do's&Dont's | Gear |
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:32 pm 
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Thanks for your input winston.

I'd like to point out that the tr will go into the A4 and not the other way around. All the machines will be synced by their own midi cables, no chaining.

Ill take a look into the sampler Idea. Ill start will this though because this is what i have atm and im broke as fuck. In the time practicing i can always add so ill take your advice in mind.

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