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 Post subject: Re: Reference tracks
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 6:29 pm 
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Slowy J
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This +1

Its the same with good monitors, genre is irrelevant. Hip hop too can be amazing to reference and analyze, like Dr Dre's productions for example, lots to learn there... you don't have to like the music.


Lost to the Void wrote:
Good mixing is good mixing, you learn more from listening out-genre, especially from high production ethic genres. There really isnt much difference in technique terms between mixing jazz and mixing techno. The same principles apply. With Jazz you have to be a little more careful to fully capture the nuance, and this attention to detail is a beneficial lesson.


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 Post subject: Re: Reference tracks
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:00 pm 
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I consider Techno to be more about pushing sound and rhythm and Jazz to be more about pushing the boundaries of musicality and musicianship. The focus is different ..


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 Post subject: Re: Reference tracks
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:01 pm 
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Lost to the Void wrote:

But sure, go for the low hanging fruit, it is easier at the end of the day.


:D

even if you don't understand Dutch,
he's talking about "going up the ladder" from about 6:06 till 6:26, literally talkig about picking up the fruits that hang around,
(and how the weak are slowing us down)
obviously, all of this is meant in Teeuwen's own ironic way,
but yeah...


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 Post subject: Re: Reference tracks
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:24 pm 
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surface wrote:
I consider Techno to be more about pushing sound and rhythm and Jazz to be more about pushing the boundaries of musicality and musicianship. The focus is different ..



Is it though? Jazz is as much about sound texture and eeking new sounds out of instruments as it is technical music skill.

Take someone like Russian Jazz Saxophonist Ilia Belorukov, for example. He is pushing sound and rhythm to the limit.
His music has inspired my own sound design, what he does with a saxaphone is insane.

I hear a lot of Jazz in techno.
I think of Techno, in some modes, as synthetic Jazz.

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 Post subject: Re: Reference tracks
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:13 am 
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Lost to the Void wrote:
In a production forum biggin up shite production values...
Wtf?


No.

The question is what exactly is bad production and what is not. IMO, the production should suit the music in question. IMO, a rougher and less clinical production style works better for techno (and punk, or black metal), while as mixing jazz or classical or pop has different values and goals. Modern techno records are often too clinical and don't sound as good to my ears as the better examples of 90's records. You're of course entitled to think otherwise, they ain't called opinions for nothing!

At least to my ears good 90's techno and house sounds MILES better in terms of fidelity, when compared to most modern records. Both in home listening and in nightclubs. Why? Because the less clinical production suits the music better.

Why are we even discussing this again? It's just a matter of opinion. I like this, you like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Reference tracks
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:13 pm 
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Barfunkel wrote:
while as mixing jazz or classical or pop has different values and goals.



No it doesn`t, the goal is for the music to translate to as many systems as possible, the sound, as the artist intended at the point of recording.
That is all.

Shite production will not translate, it really is that simple.

Now you can have great "raw" production.

There are many punk bands who would have benefitted from, instead of having shitty recordings that sound shit, working with a producer like Steve Albini, who is known for working really well with bands to capture raw performances, preferring to record in one take rather than multi tracking separately.
He captures the raw performance, but still, and this is the important factor that you don`t understand, produces it really well.

His recordings of Neurosis, for example, capture the rawness and the unbridled ferocity of their sound, without the clinicality of bands who track everything, like, slipknot, for example.

so the record sounds ballsy as fuck BUT it still sounds great wherever you play it.

but I get you don`t get it, you just don`t understand production, or only in a very limited way, which is why you have difficulty separating tone and character over good production, you seem to think good production can`t still sound raw, as if ANY kind of production ruins the sound. You don`t understand that any recording medium has limitations in frequency and amplitude that air/the real world, does not, and so to prevent things like masking (where one sound covers another, therefore making the sound disappear), you need too........ produce properly, otherwise your "raw" sounds vanish underneath other raw sounds. Because, bizarrely enough, shite production sounds shite.

But you don`t want to learn or even basically understand, so there is no point going on with this.

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 Post subject: Re: Reference tracks
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:41 pm 
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TR
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Lost to the Void wrote:
surface wrote:
I consider Techno to be more about pushing sound and rhythm and Jazz to be more about pushing the boundaries of musicality and musicianship. The focus is different ..



Is it though? Jazz is as much about sound texture and eeking new sounds out of instruments as it is technical music skill.

Take someone like Russian Jazz Saxophonist Ilia Belorukov, for example. He is pushing sound and rhythm to the limit.
His music has inspired my own sound design, what he does with a saxaphone is insane.

I hear a lot of Jazz in techno.
I think of Techno, in some modes, as synthetic Jazz.


I've never really got into jazz apart from some typical stuff like Thelonius or occassional Miles Davis track so never heard of the guy.
It's a world I should really explore.
Will check it out though cos it sounds interesting.
Def not a fan of that improv/free jazz or whatever the term is. It just never appealed to me.

On a more electronic tip, I do like some Ian O'Brien's stuff, probably the use of less obvious time sigs ..


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 Post subject: Re: Reference tracks
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:49 pm 
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Yeah I`m not a huge Jazz fan.
I`m a music fan, I listen to fucking everything and I like what I like, partly because I always have, and partly because it`s my job to have a good experience of all genres.
I like some Jazz, not all, I tend to prefer stuff I can connect with emotionally, regardless of genre, so I`m not in to stuff that is purely technical, musically or production-wise.

Live/Improv Jazz is much more worthwhile when you are at the performance and see the people riffing off of each other, it`s not always a total random noodle.
But yeah, a lot of it is just technical skill over emotional connection, and I don`t dig it.

But there is a strong connection between Jazz and techno, or at least techno that pushes forwards. Both explore musicality and tonality and rhythm in less obvious ways (at least the techno I like does).

Even some of the dubby stuff, although you would think is more connected to dub, a lot of it also has a very Jazz sound. Drum and Bass also connected with Jazz, albeit more obviously, especially Roni Size etc

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 Post subject: Re: Reference tracks
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:13 pm 
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Lost to the Void wrote:
There are many punk bands who would have benefitted from, instead of having shitty recordings that sound shit, working with a producer like Steve Albini, who is known for working really well with bands to capture raw performances, preferring to record in one take rather than multi tracking separately.
He captures the raw performance, but still, and this is the important factor that you don`t understand, produces it really well.


Though i couldn't imagine Black Flag, Crap Detectors, The Heartbreakers or GG produced by Albini. I totally get what you are saying but for me the lo-fi crappyness is part of punkrock and especially garage punk rock'n'roll.

Jesus, The Oblivians produced by Albini...i'd puke all day.

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 Post subject: Re: Reference tracks
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:33 pm 
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msl wrote:
Hip hop too can be amazing to reference and analyze, like Dr Dre's productions for example, lots to learn there.


Please have in mind that most of Dre's stuff is actually produced by Scott Storch (though he's just credited as the co-producer). Dre is the crate digger and surely he got some production skills but the overall sound (at least from his Chronic 2001 masterpiece) is Scott's work.

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 Post subject: Re: Reference tracks
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:21 am 
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Mono-xID wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:
There are many punk bands who would have benefitted from, instead of having shitty recordings that sound shit, working with a producer like Steve Albini, who is known for working really well with bands to capture raw performances, preferring to record in one take rather than multi tracking separately.
He captures the raw performance, but still, and this is the important factor that you don`t understand, produces it really well.


Though i couldn't imagine Black Flag, Crap Detectors, The Heartbreakers or GG produced by Albini. I totally get what you are saying but for me the lo-fi crappyness is part of punkrock and especially garage punk rock'n'roll.

Jesus, The Oblivians produced by Albini...i'd puke all day.


As much as I loved GG, decent production would never have helped.
It wasnt really about the music with him anyway.

i could definitely imagine Black Flag doing those same performances but with a better recording engineer. That would have been awesome.

Same with Crass.

Its more about the energy in the performance in these instances, good or at least better production wouldnt have hurt at all, but we'll never know.

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 Post subject: Re: Reference tracks
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:16 am 
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I like it when the production suits the music. I wouldn't want to listen to Thriller made in some cabin in the middle of the woods with a cassette 4-tracker, but for black metal it suits. Some forms of music are raw and rough and they sound better (to my ears anyway) when the production is raw and rough too. And likewise, some forms of music are high end and polished and that kind of production values suit that music in question.

Like, this sounds awesome to my ears, despite being technically horrible, no bass whatsoever and stuff:



There IS black metal with better production, but I tend to not like it, because it sounds so fluffy, the production doesn't suit the music. Like, Dimmu Borgir and such. It sounds just like Metallica or something. Of course it's easier to the ears, particularly to the uninitiated. I just personally LIKE to sometimes listen to things that aren't that easy to the ears. I do listen to pop music, and jazz, but it's again a question of having the kind of production that suits the music.

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 Post subject: Re: Reference tracks
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:37 pm 
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One of my all-time favourite songs. If this one would have "proper" production, it wouldn't be like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Reference tracks
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:12 pm 
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I've bought a lot of "raw" techno tracks that I loved when i listened to em, but just can't really fit them into a mix because they sound too different from the rest of the techno I like to mix. I think the whole idea of "raw" or "rough" productions is kind of becoming a fetish. Though I still prefer rough over poppy shit, and it's the absolute worst when you put the two together. That being said, sometimes just whipping out a track/dj tool and whipping a compressor on it is fun.

Back to the topic at hand: reference tracks. I tend to through my latest "home master" bounce into a set if I'm messing around, just to listen to it next to other, similar tracks. I also have a playlist that I throw my latest home mix/master on to compare with other tracks. Fairly typical, since it's just songs that i like:
Ben klock, Subzero (The kick is so distinct in that tune)
Denise Rabe - Berlin Knights (The kind of gritty that i really, really like)
any songs by Kahn, or dnb by guys like Icicle, for the sub + Drums
Usually something by Noisia, because they always have top notch production values.

It's all electronic, I should probably branch out a bit, since i listen to all kinds of music. i just don't buy much of it anymore. And again, a grain of salt, cause I'm no professional, i'm sure they reference things a lot.

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 Post subject: Re: Reference tracks
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:43 pm 
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Again, raw can be well produced.
Shit is shit though.

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 Post subject: Re: Reference tracks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:28 am 
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sinesnsnares wrote:
I think the whole idea of "raw" or "rough" productions is kind of becoming a fetish.


exactly.
to some it really is.

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