Is there any point in releasing music these days.

[Críoch]

How's forte going Ross? Im not really keeping track of stuff on fb. Was it hard to break even on the vinyl?

If you dont mind me asking?

[onthemake]

Going back to the OP. I think this is a very good/relevant/interesting question and I would like to add my thoughts as someone who buys music rather than releases music.

Over the last 10 years or so I have tended to buy music digitally. Originally from Beatport, and more recently Bandcamp and sometimes Boomkat, but over the last couple of years I've started to buy less and less. Why? A number of reasons.


1) Ownership. I don't fully trust that I own my digital purchases. I stopped buying from Beatport because it was such a hassle to re-download stuff. It was as if I was buying the chance to download the song once. A complete rip-off. I thought Bandcamp and Boomkat were much better. You have your collection like a real music collection and you can redownload as much as you want. But and this is a big but. If the label disappears from Bandcamp so does the music from your collection. So you don't really own it for life either. So again it feels like a waste of money. Of course I could back this all up which brings me onto my next point.


2) Futureproofing. What is going to happen in the future? I again worry that I am going to have all this music on harddrives which eventually when or if I make it to being old and grey I wont be able to access because I wont have the equipment to access because I havent anticipated what i will need to do so in the future. Or the equipment wont be readily available or the hard drive just wont work. Or the cloud back up will disappear because Amazon/Google etc are no longer relevant. Again all that money spent and it can all vanish in an instant. Plus it is highly likely I will spend all this money on music and then it is made available to stream anyway as streaming becomes higher quality and easier to do. And then what I start paying for streaming service and pay for it all over again?

3) Too much music. I know there has always been shit music released and at the end of the day it is all subjective so what I think is shit another person will think is amazing, but I feel standards are slipping across the board. A lot of labels or people putting together self-releases are releasing so much music a lot of it is bang average and I don;t think it really deserves my money. I mean a lot of this music is listenable but it doesn't really wow me and doesn't get me heading to my wallet. I know people probably don't like the streaming model but I think as someone who buys rather than releases music it is a much safer option for sifting through all of the crap, especially when you add into the mix future proofing and ownership.

4) DJing. All of the above points are also affecting my DJing. I mean I am not a pro DJ but like to have a mix at home and used to occaisionally play out and put on parties but recently I have stopped, mainly because I am struggling to buy any new music because I don't want to waste money, and I also feel like a lot of these arguements can be applied to DJ gear too, especially digital gear which always seems to becoming obsolete and needs upgrading.

So how will I buy music in the future? Personally I am thinking of switching back to buying physical stuff. Vinyl/tapes/CDs so I actually have and own the music. On a digital front, I would be more inclined to pay a small fee to artists and labels I like to have access to downloads or unlimited streaming options across my devices. All I would say is, if I am going to buy physical stuff or support artists and labels in this way then the quality of releases is going to have to be high as I don't want to be wasting money on a lot of filler as I don't have so much to spend on music these days.

In addition to this I would like to hear peoples thoughts on what might be a sustainable streaming model for small electronic artists and labels as this is clearly the future of digital music distribution. What do you think?

[P0607r0n]

Going back to the OP. I think this is a very good/relevant/interesting question and I would like to add my thoughts as someone who buys music rather than releases music.

Over the last 10 years or so I have tended to buy music digitally. Originally from Beatport, and more recently Bandcamp and sometimes Boomkat, but over the last couple of years I've started to buy less and less. Why? A number of reasons.


1) Ownership. I don't fully trust that I own my digital purchases. I stopped buying from Beatport because it was such a hassle to re-download stuff. It was as if I was buying the chance to download the song once. A complete rip-off. I thought Bandcamp and Boomkat were much better. You have your collection like a real music collection and you can redownload as much as you want. But and this is a big but. If the label disappears from Bandcamp so does the music from your collection. So you don't really own it for life either. So again it feels like a waste of money. Of course I could back this all up which brings me onto my next point.


2) Futureproofing. What is going to happen in the future? I again worry that I am going to have all this music on harddrives which eventually when or if I make it to being old and grey I wont be able to access because I wont have the equipment to access because I havent anticipated what i will need to do so in the future. Or the equipment wont be readily available or the hard drive just wont work. Or the cloud back up will disappear because Amazon/Google etc are no longer relevant. Again all that money spent and it can all vanish in an instant. Plus it is highly likely I will spend all this money on music and then it is made available to stream anyway as streaming becomes higher quality and easier to do. And then what I start paying for streaming service and pay for it all over again?

3) Too much music. I know there has always been shit music released and at the end of the day it is all subjective so what I think is shit another person will think is amazing, but I feel standards are slipping across the board. A lot of labels or people putting together self-releases are releasing so much music a lot of it is bang average and I don;t think it really deserves my money. I mean a lot of this music is listenable but it doesn't really wow me and doesn't get me heading to my wallet. I know people probably don't like the streaming model but I think as someone who buys rather than releases music it is a much safer option for sifting through all of the crap, especially when you add into the mix future proofing and ownership.

4) DJing. All of the above points are also affecting my DJing. I mean I am not a pro DJ but like to have a mix at home and used to occaisionally play out and put on parties but recently I have stopped, mainly because I am struggling to buy any new music because I don't want to waste money, and I also feel like a lot of these arguements can be applied to DJ gear too, especially digital gear which always seems to becoming obsolete and needs upgrading.

So how will I buy music in the future? Personally I am thinking of switching back to buying physical stuff. Vinyl/tapes/CDs so I actually have and own the music. On a digital front, I would be more inclined to pay a small fee to artists and labels I like to have access to downloads or unlimited streaming options across my devices. All I would say is, if I am going to buy physical stuff or support artists and labels in this way then the quality of releases is going to have to be high as I don't want to be wasting money on a lot of filler as I don't have so much to spend on music these days.

In addition to this I would like to hear peoples thoughts on what might be a sustainable streaming model for small electronic artists and labels as this is clearly the future of digital music distribution. What do you think?

I get your point of view. I guess streaming seems like a bliss from a listener/consumer standpoint (I don't know personally, I'm not using streaming), though after reading big article about how the streaming companies (big players like Deezer, or Spotify) work, and especially how they work with major music labels puts me off from it. As they basically promote artists that big money labels ask them to promote. I'll try to fetch the article, was quite interesting read.

[onthemake]

Yeah I think I read that article. For me streaming from services like Spotify is more of a paid radio replacement, for listening to popular music I like. I tend to just search for things I like and related stuff rather than what they promote. As for the smaller guys involved in electronic music I am not sure streaming is bliss from a listener/consumer standpoint but I think it could be the best of a bad bunch of options available digitally in the future.

Maybe we should look at streaming as a radio replacement service and go back to buying physical if we really want to own something.

I've seen it talked about on here before, but I am starting to warm to the idea of buying tapes again. They are cheap for the artist/label to produce and as a listener they are small and easy to store. Maybe the digital files could be made available as part of the purchase for someone wanting to use the tracks for DJing.

I don't hate vinyl, but I get frustrated at the limited runs and the high prices on discogs. I live out in Japan and even really obscure stuff sells out fast because I think they only send out one or two copies to Japan so it is hard to get vinyl release you want. And shipping fees from europe can be expensive as it is heavy.

I don't know the best way forward. I think it is a difficult time for everyone involved because no one is sure of the future, especially the listener.

[RWise]

Streaming is the future for the general music consumption of the world. But theres still a long way to go...

The payout for the artists is still fucking shocking... its reminiscent of the whole 'hey we cant pay you much but we'll give you exposure'.

[Lost to the Void]

Streaming is only the future for the consumer.
The artist gets royally fucked.
It is the worst distribution model the music industry has been managed to produce.

It is actually better to go with the old music industry model and bend over the desk, and whilst they fuck.you in the arse, sign over all master tapes, copywriter etc etc Than it is to.use streaming services.

I refuse to use them as a music customer.

[Root]

Spotify and other use algorithms that create playlists, depending on what other users like and listen to. As most of the people like easy music streaming services push indipendent, complex, not super easy music more and more aside. Even pop productions already start to write their music just to come off well regarding the algorithms. So no long intros anymore, only songs that make the listener keep listening longer than 30 seconds, because spotify will count this as 'fully streamed' and will mark it higher in it's listings. Poor customers, poor industry, no music anymore, only products.

[dubdub]

Yeah, fuck streaming. At least in underground dance music land most of the stuff released still doesn't make it to streaming sites but that might change in the next 5 years.

One thing I don't get is how the streaming enthusiasts think the math is going to work out with streaming... like, how are you going to feed all the artists in the world off a 10 bucks flatrate premium service? Previously if you bought one CD or one or two digital albums you were already paying more than people are paying now with spotify. The argument that the streaming enthusiasts then make is that it's better than the age piracy but honestly, I really doubt it. The average person used to buy a CD or an album here and there, which probably added up to more than 10 bucks a month, besides, most people just use the free Spotify anyways which doesn't pay shit. Most of the hardcore pirates were still buying music on the side, much more than the average consumer(this has been proven in studies) and now they're paying way less if they went the streaming route.

Besides, even with all the label fuckery if someone bought a CD you at least got your cut fair and square. With streaming you have the same scam as with the rights holder orgainzations (GEMA etc.) where you have no control over your cut. TIDAL has already been proven to have manipulated streaming numbers in favor of major artists and Spotify has been accused of using fake artists to lower payouts (which again, is inevitable if we consider that their business model is not sustainable without screwing people over when it comes to payouts).

Bandcamp is the only reasonable option for independent music, they really need to do a proper storefront like Beatport for the DJ market.

[dubdub]

Just as a sidenote, streaming is also godawful for archival purposes. We still have records that are over 100 years old that have endured both world wars etc. Meanwhile with streaming nobody except the artist/label has a decentralized copy so when the artist is dead and Spotify ever goes down (it will eventually), the music is GONE.

[ross-alexander]

How's forte going Ross? Im not really keeping track of stuff on fb. Was it hard to break even on the vinyl?

If you dont mind me asking?

Hi John yeah going ok it is what it is and is fairly self sufficient. First one was just shy second one less so or even on the vinyls. To be honest the digital probably brings back proportionally less although obviously not a massive outlay. What i find though is i have very little time these days with work comnitments and also my current opinion on the state of play with the techno scene in the big scheme isn't massively positive. But am getting a lot of music done across a range and get to play out a little bit so pretty happy in my own bubble.

I think as touched on engagement is the tricky thing. When SoundCloud became a swamp I tried to keep that going just with snippets on YouTube and Instagram. It's enough to keep a few chances to play out here a year which suits me.

I do get asked about digital releases but I think I can do that myself. I occasionally send out demos but think there's very little point. The output is ok and there's a lot of it so it will either go out some stage or get whacked on bandcamp. As long as it's there somewhere it doesn't bother me too much. Hope you are well mate

[Prophän]

How's forte going Ross? Im not really keeping track of stuff on fb. Was it hard to break even on the vinyl?

If you dont mind me asking?

Hi John yeah going ok it is what it is and is fairly self sufficient. First one was just shy second one less so or even on the vinyls. To be honest the digital probably brings back proportionally less although obviously not a massive outlay. What i find though is i have very little time these days with work comnitments and also my current opinion on the state of play with the techno scene in the big scheme isn't massively positive. But am getting a lot of music done across a range and get to play out a little bit so pretty happy in my own bubble.

I think as touched on engagement is the tricky thing. When SoundCloud became a swamp I tried to keep that going just with snippets on YouTube and Instagram. It's enough to keep a few chances to play out here a year which suits me.

I do get asked about digital releases but I think I can do that myself. I occasionally send out demos but think there's very little point. The output is ok and there's a lot of it so it will either go out some stage or get whacked on bandcamp. As long as it's there somewhere it doesn't bother me too much. Hope you are well mate

Hey could u link me to some of it please ?

[[wesellboxes]]

Peggy Gou seems to have done alright for herself with 90% faked social media accounts and some half decent PR.

[Mono-xID]

The whole techno scene atm is one big fat joke imo. The flood of generic releases is just too much and so is the self centered, ego driven self promotion game.
It's disgusting and I don't participate since 2 years. I don't buy any techno releases and I stopped sending demos. I still get lots of requests for releases on soundklaus but I absolutely don't see any point.

[Abyss Divide]

It is funny times for any creative person trying to promote their work. My fiance is having the same struggles with her short movie as I am with tracks. The basic issue is that the democratization of the production process has created over supply and the actual bottle neck is the attention of the audience. You hear people complaining it is difficult to make oneself heard above 'the noise' but it's quite a silly argument as what is noise is relative to one's position - our own self expression is that 'special signal' and the other stuff is the noise; Tracks and releases have long become a PR instrument rather than an end product as suggested by others here.

[Squill]

I guess it depends on your view of it all. This has been covered in the thread already, but talking from experience, if you want to play more shows, get your work noticed, etc, you have to be consistent in releasing music. You can have a few hit or misses but as long as your consistent, you’ll do fine in the industry. This doesn’t mean it’s right, but it’s from what I experienced in my music scene, and what some of the more well known DJs told me. I’m more of release tunes as a form of expression and whatever happens, happens.

[Hades]

The basic issue is that the democratization of the production process has created over supply and the actual bottle neck is the attention of the audience.

^^ I hate the extremely short attention span most people have.
And it's just getting worse and worse.

Pretty much everything I always enjoyed in my life were things that took their time (films, books, music,...)
It's quite obvious longer things will usually be deeper than the shorter stuff.

[chava]

Pretty much everything I always enjoyed in my life were things that took their time (films, books, music,...)
It's quite obvious longer things will usually be deeper than the shorter stuff.

It's also one of the reasons I keep getting back to playing vinyl. All the hassle actually benefits the experience instead of the instant gratification of expedient surfer-listening on the latest slick interface of your favorite streaming service.

On topic, obviously the market has been saturated because of cheap technology and globalization, but the same process has also expanded the market to almost everywhere on the globe. That's why even smaller acts can find a living if they bother with all the travelling to strange places. Also the ongoing collapse of "EDM" has potentially opened up a market for sounds more in line with the 'underground' techno/house culture.

Living as a producer with no gigs is practically impossible though. That was not the case back in analog times (90s).

[WOLF!]

^^ I hate the extremely short attention span most people have.
And it's just getting worse and worse.

Quite normal and a indication for the current hype if you ask me. It's all about quickly consuming nowadays.

[Hades]

^^ I hate the extremely short attention span most people have.
And it's just getting worse and worse.

Quite normal and a indication for the current hype if you ask me. It's all about quickly consuming nowadays.

you said something bout things being quite normal,
but then I got distracted by having to check my instagram status,
and someone posting how they loved that pic of me french kissing a dirty diaper !

Could you possibly repeat ?
In less than 20 characters ?