fatherhood

General Chat // Music Discussion
User avatar
Mattias
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:19 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:
Re: fatherhood

Post by Mattias »

chava wrote:I'm not the optimist type, but the overpopulation thing is just straight-up neo-Malthusian bollocks and using it to berate people who chose to have kids is rather tasteless in my humble opinion.
Well there is quite a difference on viewing issues and recognize them, develop humane ideas and solution to them compared to a authoritarian & restricting ideas (sprung from religion) like the malthusian.

Nothing wrong to berate people who chose to have kids and wear them as accessories.
Music Page: http://www.facebook.com/Mattias.Fridell.Music
Soundcloud: http://soundcloud.com/fridell
Sample packs: http://mfsamples.bandcamp.com

Contention / 005

gtsm
fake
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:09 am
Re: fatherhood

Post by gtsm »

0dd wrote:A really wise being once gave me the most humane answer to the population problem. Only 1 child per parent pair. Population halved in one generation.
I'm sorry, but this is complete and utter BS. As are all simplistic solutions to complex problems. First off, this doesn't take into account the ageing of population and what would happen when there were twice as much old people as the young ones. The society as we know it would certainly collapse as it would not be able to take care of itself. Not to mention that every social welfare system would crash and only those that were able to amass enough wealth would be able to survive through the old age. But even those people would have nobody to pay to take care of them. So yeah, not such a great idea. Unless, you are willing to kill people when they are no longer able to work.

User avatar
Mattias
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:19 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:
Re: fatherhood

Post by Mattias »

gtsm wrote:
0dd wrote:A really wise being once gave me the most humane answer to the population problem. Only 1 child per parent pair. Population halved in one generation.
I'm sorry, but this is complete and utter BS. As are all simplistic solutions to complex problems. First off, this doesn't take into account the ageing of population and what would happen when there were twice as much old people as the young ones. The society as we know it would certainly collapse as it would not be able to take care of itself. Not to mention that every social welfare system would crash and only those that were able to amass enough wealth would be able to survive through the old age. But even those people would have nobody to pay to take care of them. So yeah, not such a great idea. Unless, you are willing to kill people when they are no longer able to work.
Calm down for a bit. No one is talking about one solution here, as you correctly pointed out that simple solutions doesn't fix complex problems. We managed to come along way with awareness about many important things; food industry, environmental issues and so forth. When awareness is raised, issues talked about and we're allowed to discuss it good tings can happen. All type of forced solutions / ideas or major restrictions are only ever viable as last resort options, if even then. As you point out "society as we know it would collapse" then that's a great starting point to focus on. I' no big fan of the society we have today even though it have many advantages over the societies of old. However, society structure today is built on a foundation of old school ideas that needs to be revised.
Music Page: http://www.facebook.com/Mattias.Fridell.Music
Soundcloud: http://soundcloud.com/fridell
Sample packs: http://mfsamples.bandcamp.com

Contention / 005

gtsm
fake
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:09 am
Re: fatherhood

Post by gtsm »

Mattias wrote:
gtsm wrote:
0dd wrote:A really wise being once gave me the most humane answer to the population problem. Only 1 child per parent pair. Population halved in one generation.
I'm sorry, but this is complete and utter BS. As are all simplistic solutions to complex problems. First off, this doesn't take into account the ageing of population and what would happen when there were twice as much old people as the young ones. The society as we know it would certainly collapse as it would not be able to take care of itself. Not to mention that every social welfare system would crash and only those that were able to amass enough wealth would be able to survive through the old age. But even those people would have nobody to pay to take care of them. So yeah, not such a great idea. Unless, you are willing to kill people when they are no longer able to work.
Calm down for a bit. No one is talking about one solution here, as you correctly pointed out that simple solutions doesn't fix complex problems. We managed to come along way with awareness about many important things; food industry, environmental issues and so forth. When awareness is raised, issues talked about and we're allowed to discuss it good tings can happen. All type of forced solutions / ideas or major restrictions are only ever viable as last resort options, if even then. As you point out "society as we know it would collapse" then that's a great starting point to focus on. I' no big fan of the society we have today even though it have many advantages over the societies of old. However, society structure today is built on a foundation of old school ideas that needs to be revised.
Sorry, I just got triggered for some reason :lol: However, I think that you have to have a pretty clear image of what you want to achieve before destroying what you have. What's the alternative for current state? We had many attempts on building a new society on ruins of the old one, but none was successful. Communism, nazism and others failed badly and things got back to were they were before the experiments.

User avatar
0dd
Get in the back of the van
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:04 pm
Location: Serbia
Re: fatherhood

Post by 0dd »

Those were not really attempts of rebuilding humanity, more attempts of dictatorship.
"After silence that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music". Aldous Huxley

User avatar
Hades
Shit Eater
Posts: 9795
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:02 am
Re: fatherhood

Post by Hades »

over9000 wrote: i thought alot about working / and earning money, as it is something that i never really got into the proper way i guess.
...
how do you feel your life changed with kids for this perspective?
did you need alot more money then before?
...
now we have the option to go live in the landside and overtake a farm that is part of a shared economy, basically a cooperative of farms where all the income is shared to all farms and every member gets a minimum wage.
but its not really about the money, because food and basic needs are organized collectivly.
so there will be no monetary problems if that works out , which iam really glad about.
congratz man, it will change your life.
There's this scene in Lost In Translation, where Scarlett Johansson asks Bill Murray what it's like having kids,
he thinks for a few seconds and just says "your life as you know it, is gone, never to return !!" :)

First a couple of little things I can think of :

*don't be this idiot that lets his mrs give birth at home or at some midwife's house or whatever.
In Africa women will walk maybe 50km on foot just to get to a hospital, and here we are, thinking we'll just do it at home because it's so much nicer and shit. Of course it's probably "nicer", but when shit goes wrong (and shit can seriously go wrong), that midwife is not going to be able to save your mrs' life.
My mrs nearly bled to death shortly after giving birth, and I literally saw like 4 or 5 nurses and doctors all of a sudden run into the room while I was holding our first born. At the time I didn't even realize what was happening, but afterwards, I couldn't help but think "fuck, if we lived 100 years earlier, I would have been a widower from the start. Hell, if we lived somewhere in most parts of Africa or whatever even today, it would have been the same thing". Don't be that fool. If your mrs would want that, talk some sense into her.

*having said all of the above to properly worry you : stop worrying, you bitch ! :D
Women have given birth to kids for thousands of years, so there's very little reason this won't work out properly.

*back when me and the mrs were looking to buy a place of our own, we were still living in a bigger city, and all the prices we saw of houses (or even apartments) were far too expensive, even outside the city. And through some friends, we got involved in one of these projects you just mentioned above. Mind you, no farming involved, just buying like an old farm and dividing it into several living units, stuff like that. We spent like ages and ages and ages debating even the tiniest little things, and in the end, I found the house we bought and it turned out my parents had quite a lot more set aside for this than I ever knew, so we got out of that project, and it later on just slowly vaporized because nothing was ever properly moving forward.
Looking back now I'm very happy we didn't do that stuff. I'm just not a guy for all these group things. Sure it might be great for the kids, but in the end, it can go wrong so fast. Imagine you (or your kids) get into a proper argument with one of the others (or their kids). You still have to look at each other's face all the time. I got one shitty neighbor now, and that's already annoying enough, but at least we each have our own property.
Anyway, just saying : think twice before you step into a thing like that.
Sin cambios no hay mariposa


User avatar
terryfalafel
Component
Posts: 876
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:56 pm
Location: Amsterdam
Re: fatherhood

Post by terryfalafel »

Hades wrote: *don't be this idiot that lets his mrs give birth at home or at some midwife's house or whatever.
In Africa women will walk maybe 50km on foot just to get to a hospital, and here we are, thinking we'll just do it at home because it's so much nicer and shit. Of course it's probably "nicer", but when shit goes wrong (and shit can seriously go wrong), that midwife is not going to be able to save your mrs' life.
I agree. It'll almost certainly be fine, but it's a case of 'hope for the best, prepare for the worst'. My daughter would not have survived a home birth in all likelihood.

Though I'm not sure that anyone should be 'letting' their lady do anything regarding birth Hades ;-) Am I being pedantic? Possibly, but it's the woman who does the work, and who gets the final say on things imo. The man's job is to support, and that's it.

User avatar
Hades
Shit Eater
Posts: 9795
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:02 am
Re: fatherhood

Post by Hades »

*moving to the countryside seems ideal for your kids (and in some way for you), but there are things to consider :
do you have a decent school nearby ? And I'm not just talking about an elementary school, but also high school.
And what about when your kids will want to do some hobby ? Music school ? Some sports ?
I live in a relatively small town (14k people), but with a good connection to a lot of bigger cities. But it covers a big area geographically, and even here I already encounter practical issues.
My kids got a wonderful school, and I'm pretty sure the high school will be fine as well since it's part of the same group of schools here. But I've even seen parents from one of the sub-villages of our town move their kids to the school here because they are simply not happy with the level in the smaller schools here.
And currently, my oldest is doing music school and art, and she can't possibly get there by herself (especially not carrying her cello with her). We're pretty damn lucky that they're leaving the old building to move to a new site next year which happens to be literally 100m away from our door, but yeah, right now, it's still doing a lot of taxi service.
So honestly, I can't help but wonder about people that on purpose choose to live somewhere completely in the country side. Lots of room for their kids to play, sure, but as soon as they get a little older and they want to do some hobby, their options are pretty much zero.
Sin cambios no hay mariposa


User avatar
Hades
Shit Eater
Posts: 9795
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:02 am
Re: fatherhood

Post by Hades »

terryfalafel wrote: The man's job is to support, and that's it.
nah man, the man's job is to flirt with the nurses or to go get some beers with his friends.

Honestly though, our first got born so quick I couldn't even have given support if I wanted to.
(half an hour in total, if not less)
Our 2nd however, took hours, and while my mrs was having her contractions, all I could do was rub her back a little and tell her she was doing great. She told me later that she didn't know how she could have done it without me, but I did fuck all. I think a man never feels more helpless than when he sees his mrs give birth to their child.
Sin cambios no hay mariposa


User avatar
Hades
Shit Eater
Posts: 9795
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:02 am
Re: fatherhood

Post by Hades »

to OP : another one I can think of, is that it's FAR more important to give time and attention (love) to you kids than to have more money. Of course you need a minimum, but money won't be what they remember later on.
I did a shit nightshift job for about 15 years. Didn't give me lots of money, but it gave me lots of free days,
and at first I was using all that time for myself, but when I got to have kids, I could keep them at home with me for most of the days, so they didn't have to go to daycare all the time like most of the other kids.
I got to bring them to school and pick them up from school.
I had time to learn them how to ride a bicycle.
I had time to help them with their homework.
...

One of my sisters died when she was 37. Back then her kids were 2,5/4/6 years old. My brother in law got a new GF about 6 months later, and it breaks our heart every time when we see how they never have time for the kids.
You can't imagine how happy these kids are when you just do something together with them.
I took the oldest for a weekend of MTB'ing about a year ago, and he still talks about that all the time.
Last school holiday, I suggested I took in all 3 kids for a few days, because my mrs took some days off, and I'm waiting to start a course (could be march, could be april) so I'm at home for the moment anyway.
My brother in law said it didn't work out, but suggested we do the next school holiday.
Basically just because that way he gets a free babysit again and he already had his parents take care of them the week I suggested.
They go on expensive city trips several times a year without the kids, but he makes his youngest pay for a special kind of sun glasses (because of some skin related problem) with her own pocket money.
Last year the easter bunny brought them socks and underwear. :|
Fucking asshole.

As soon as my sister got sick, she spent as much time with her kids as possible. She was the only other creative one in the family (painter), but instead of trying to finish more of her art, she just spent every possible minute on her kids. And now we've been seeing their dad do the exact opposite for years.

Time and love is FAR more important for kids than money.
Sin cambios no hay mariposa


User avatar
Hades
Shit Eater
Posts: 9795
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:02 am
Re: fatherhood

Post by Hades »

and finally 2 more things :

You don't HAVE to make having kids an expensive thing. Of course you will always need some essential stuff,
but a LOT of people have kids, so a LOT of people buy things new and then don't need them any more 1 or 2 years later. Buy used stuff as much as you can. Flea markets are your friend. eBay or other sites for used stuff...
Even tons of toys, you can all find it there.
I am lucky enough to be the youngest of 4, so my girls are the youngest of 11 grand children in my family.
My oldest sister is pretty rich, and she has 3 girls, all older than mine, so we get a huge pile of nice clothes shoved our way every few months. When we don't need them any more, we hand them out to other couples we know with younger kids than ours. We saved shit loads of money that way. But if we wouldn't have had that, we would have bought tons of clothes on flea markets. Kids really don't care if they have used clothes (as long as they are still in good quality of course). Just make sure they look fine, so they can't get mocked at by others, which is also only an issue that can occur when they get older, not in kinder garden.
My oldest is now 10, and she still doesn't mind wearing used clothes.
And it makes it even way more fun when you do buy something new as well. You don't have to think twice because you barely waste a lot of money on clothes anyway.
I've bought shit like brand new shiny red shoes on a flea market for like 5€ which cost maybe 100€ new (and shoes are one of the few things you do need to buy from really good quality).
We live in a consumption society, so that also means there is a LOT to be bought used that hardly got used at all... :)

And finally : make sure you and your mrs get along. You still need to invest time and energy in your relationship. You got a KID together now. That's a thing for life that will always connect the two of you, so even if you might get divorced at some point, you'll still have to talk to her about your kid. So better make sure your relationship stays in good shape. And don't make the mistake to only start functioning as 2 parents, you still need some quality time for yourselves as well or your relationship will start to dwindle if you don't watch out.
If you buy a house together, you can still sell the house if you break up. You can't sell the kid.
Sin cambios no hay mariposa


Planar
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 3883
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:05 pm
Location: Leeds
Re: fatherhood

Post by Planar »

Nothing really much to add other than congratulations. Your life will change in a profound way you probably can't understand right now. If you're in any way a decent human being you'll do whatever it takes to make sure your kid has everything it needs and you'll be acutely aware you're no longer the most important thing in your own life.

User avatar
Mattias
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:19 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:
Re: fatherhood

Post by Mattias »

Good reads from Hades really.

By the way, I like that you added that some women in certain countries in Africa have to walk 50km to give birth.
Because in my country we now have to fly helicopter or plane to another country (Finland) to give birth. Haha
Music Page: http://www.facebook.com/Mattias.Fridell.Music
Soundcloud: http://soundcloud.com/fridell
Sample packs: http://mfsamples.bandcamp.com

Contention / 005

User avatar
Hades
Shit Eater
Posts: 9795
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:02 am
Re: fatherhood

Post by Hades »

Mattias wrote:Good reads from Hades really.

By the way, I like that you added that some women in certain countries in Africa have to walk 50km to give birth.
Because in my country we now have to fly helicopter or plane to another country (Finland) to give birth. Haha
huh ? how come ?
Sin cambios no hay mariposa


User avatar
Mattias
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:19 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:
Re: fatherhood

Post by Mattias »

Hades wrote:
Mattias wrote:Good reads from Hades really.

By the way, I like that you added that some women in certain countries in Africa have to walk 50km to give birth.
Because in my country we now have to fly helicopter or plane to another country (Finland) to give birth. Haha
huh ? how come ?
Lack of nurses and space issues. But it's all good, the Swedish royalties still can give birth at the hospitals in comfort.
Music Page: http://www.facebook.com/Mattias.Fridell.Music
Soundcloud: http://soundcloud.com/fridell
Sample packs: http://mfsamples.bandcamp.com

Contention / 005

User avatar
Leskey
non reader
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:48 pm
Re: fatherhood

Post by Leskey »

!Well my kid and all my friends and acquaintances have all given birth in sweden (stockholm) without much hassle. There is some issues though, not to be understated. But its definitely not like no childrens gets born here.

I would second pretty much everything hades is saying. And reiterate the being there for your kid (physically AND mentally) will teach the both of you a lot!

And dont give birth at home! That shit is truly just stupid. My mrs had to undergo an operation afterwards and would have probably not survived either, just like mr hades. So dont be a fool thinking it must be hippie-wounderfully amazing to be in the comfort of your home.

User avatar
Mattias
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:19 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:
Re: fatherhood

Post by Mattias »

I reckon they were born more then 2 years ago then.
Music Page: http://www.facebook.com/Mattias.Fridell.Music
Soundcloud: http://soundcloud.com/fridell
Sample packs: http://mfsamples.bandcamp.com

Contention / 005

User avatar
0dd
Get in the back of the van
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:04 pm
Location: Serbia
Re: fatherhood

Post by 0dd »

Pro talk from hades. I'd just add that you CAN sell the kid.. just need some connections. Get some good money to invest in the cult.
"After silence that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music". Aldous Huxley

User avatar
terryfalafel
Component
Posts: 876
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:56 pm
Location: Amsterdam
Re: fatherhood

Post by terryfalafel »

Good posts Hades

Especially agree about not succumbing to the consumer side of it all. For something the kid will wear or use for just three or six months, it makes so much more sense to get secondhand stuff...

User avatar
Leskey
non reader
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:48 pm
Re: fatherhood

Post by Leskey »

Mattias wrote:I reckon they were born more then 2 years ago then.
Nope. My son is 1 and a half and his "friends" around the same age and some newborns were all born here in Stockholm without anything like that being mentioned at all. Tbh l hadn't even heard of this before. The worst I'd heard was that non first timers has been sent home just a few hours after birth...


Post Reply