Food

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Stace
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Re: Food

Post by Stace »

Lost to the Void wrote:
Hades wrote: It's each to his/her own, I get that, I just don't get the philosophy behind choosing to be vegan.
See my story of a dairy cow above, if you can understand vegetarianism, then veganism follows exactly the same ethics, it just doesn`t hide from the inconvenient truths.

I was a pescatarian before I was a veggie, but I realised what is going on in the oceans was just as fucked
So I became full vegetarian.
I was ignorant to the ethics of veganism, and also made the same basic comments seen in this thread, just thought it was extreme.
Then I realised one of my good mates was a vegan, and I asked him why, and he very calmly pointed out the horrors of the animal food industry, which I was completely ignorant too.
After that, veganism seemed perfectly sensible, from an ethical standpoint, and actually quite easy to implement, as a lifestyle.
I still kinda get pissed at some vegans or the vegan "community" sometimes, as the hemp wearing trustafarian left wing cuck cliches are true in *some* cases (just as certain feminist cliches are true in some cases), so I do try to be a more rational voice within it.

However, Veganism is growing massively as more and more people become aware of the ethical situation of animal slavery and animal foodstuffs etc. It`s growing at such a rate that the dairy industry is having to start disinfo campaigns as the dairy industry has seen massive damage to profits in the last 2 years, which is awesome. And food companies have recognised it as a huge growth economy and are adapting to change.

I strongly believe that in 50 years we will look back on our treatment of animals in the same way we look back on slavery, or the holocaust as the ethical nightmares that they were.

Not that I`m excited about it, but lab grown meat will probably have a huge acceleration effect once it goes in to cheap, widespread production....
Image

You've pretty much just covered everything I think but don't always have the energy to articulate.

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jordanneke
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Re: Food

Post by jordanneke »

As with everything, people draw an ethical line.

Clubbing a baby seal for its skin - Bad
Poaching rinho horn - Bad
Eating intensively farmed pigs - Not too happy, don't each too much pork, except ribs a few time a year in the summer.
Battery chickens - slightly less than pigs
Lamb - Kinda care, but just too tasty, plus it's so dam expensive I buy very rarely.
Steak - See above.
Drinking milk - Don't care
Wearing leather - Don't care

I do agree though, we will look back at the industrial slaughter of animals and think 'Yeah, that was pretty bad'.

What I do think is to blame though is not people's own personal faults, but the power that food companies wield over all of us. Without sounding like a craaazzzay conspiracy theorist, the tools that the food companies use to get you to buy and eat their shit is mind boggling.

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Stace
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Re: Food

Post by Stace »

jordanneke wrote:As with everything, people draw an ethical line.

Clubbing a baby seal for its skin - Bad
Poaching rinho horn - Bad
Eating intensively farmed pigs - Not too happy, don't each too much pork, except ribs a few time a year in the summer.
Battery chickens - slightly less than pigs
Lamb - Kinda care, but just too tasty, plus it's so dam expensive I buy very rarely.
Steak - See above.
Drinking milk - Don't care
Wearing leather - Don't care

I do agree though, we will look back at the industrial slaughter of animals and think 'Yeah, that was pretty bad'.

What I do think is to blame though is not people's own personal faults, but the power that food companies wield over all of us. Without sounding like a craaazzzay conspiracy theorist, the tools that the food companies use to get you to buy and eat their shit is mind boggling.
Why do you think we view different animals with different levels of comfort when it comes to what we are ok with?

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Re: Food

Post by jordanneke »

Some people care, some people don't, some people kinda care.

My issue is with the industry and the treatment of the animals, not the sentience of the animals. Well, I kind of care.

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Re: Food

Post by jordanneke »

It's also probably down to what purpose the animal was domesticated for..

Dogs - Pets
Cats - Pets
Pigs - Food
Chicken - Food

etc.....

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Re: Food

Post by dubdub »

Our common animal ethics make zero sense, they don't hold up to any closer inspection. If you go around and start beating up or eating dogs and other cute animals, people will yell at you. If you then say, well I'm human, I can do whatever I want with dogs, they'll tell you that dogs have inalienable rights. Well, if some animals have inalienable rights in themselves, that goes for all animals, we can't just go around and arbitrarily assign them or they're not inalienable.

The only way to get out of that mess while ethically defending meat-eating is to assume a radical anthropocentric position where you don't give a shit about any animals. These people do exist but they are exceedingly rare, few people don't care if you show them footage of clubbed baby seals. There's a reason why a majority of the philosophers working in ethics are vegetarians/vegans.

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Re: Food

Post by jordanneke »

I agree that ethics are not universal, and they never will be.

Absolutism doesn't work. Nothing is black and white.

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Re: Food

Post by Lost to the Void »

dubdub wrote:Our common animal ethics make zero sense, they don't hold up to any closer inspection. If you go around and start beating up or eating dogs and other cute animals, people will yell at you. If you then say, well I'm human, I can do whatever I want with dogs, they'll tell you that dogs have inalienable rights. Well, if some animals have inalienable rights in themselves, that goes for all animals, we can't just go around and arbitrarily assign them or they're not inalienable.

The only way to get out of that mess while ethically defending meat-eating is to assume a radical anthropocentric position where you don't give a shit about any animals. These people do exist but they are exceedingly rare, few people don't care if you show them footage of clubbed baby seals. There's a reason why a majority of the philosophers working in ethics are vegetarians/vegans.

God damn you put that well.
I'm going to throw that up on a vegan board I'm on, if you don't mind. Very eloquently done man.
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Re: Food

Post by 0dd »

Ok, making my point one last time. If veganism is concerned with ethics and the cruelty over animals, why not just not be cruel to animals? Like i said, that beef (pun intended) is with the industry cause it really is cruel. Wtf is wrong with having say some chickens so you can have eggs, be nice to them, and if you want the meat just eat them when they die. Is that ok? To eat an already dead animal? I see no cruelty there. Killing and eating an animal can also be humane. I mean, in the wilderness it would be eaten anyway by something else. I'm not pointing at your ethics personaly void, what about the poor souls who want to become vegans by force? Would it not be more natural to go hunt/kill something with a coup de grâce and eat it, or go take an egg/some milk instead of going against yourself by all means just to not eat anything animal related? Is that not extreme? That was my point all along, It just comes back to humaneness, eco friendlyness, sustainability and not being cruel. But if that doesn't seem extreme to you, then I don't know.. I mean just look at our teeth. I guess your reply to hades back there was also not extreme? How about that? Being extremely cruel to another human being? Guess it's ok if you make up for it by eating plants.
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Re: Food

Post by tsaro »

0dd wrote:Ok, making my point one last time. If veganism is concerned with ethics and the cruelty over animals, why not just not be cruel to animals? Like i said, that beef (pun intended) is with the industry cause it really is cruel.
Actually you're answering your own question here, since it's an industry the main concern is always going to be profit. And providing meat and dairy for everyone on the planet isn't doable in a way that's sustainable, even disregarding the methane production of a free range cow and things like that, you're going to run out of space quickly, and prices will soar.

Eating animals that die from natural causes isn't really practical since you'd have to test for disease, and cows that don't give milk anymore or chickens that stopped laying eggs will still need to be fed until they die, eating into the profits once again.

Then again, without the industry there would be a lot less animals, so that kind of raises an interesting question by itself, is it better to exist in agony than not to exist at all? You could argue that the baseline for a poor existence shifts with what you deem 'normal', though in the end you must still be willing to treat other living beings like shit basically.


Lost to the Void wrote:
vo0doo wrote: it's basically saying that the best thing you could do for the environment is to kill yourself, and take as many people with you as you can.
.

Image
Interesting indeed, especially since you were just so enthusiastic about applying logic indiscriminately, and yet you're still here apparently :lol:
how far do you want to go

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Re: Food

Post by dubdub »

Lost to the Void wrote:
dubdub wrote:Our common animal ethics make zero sense, they don't hold up to any closer inspection. If you go around and start beating up or eating dogs and other cute animals, people will yell at you. If you then say, well I'm human, I can do whatever I want with dogs, they'll tell you that dogs have inalienable rights. Well, if some animals have inalienable rights in themselves, that goes for all animals, we can't just go around and arbitrarily assign them or they're not inalienable.

The only way to get out of that mess while ethically defending meat-eating is to assume a radical anthropocentric position where you don't give a shit about any animals. These people do exist but they are exceedingly rare, few people don't care if you show them footage of clubbed baby seals. There's a reason why a majority of the philosophers working in ethics are vegetarians/vegans.

God damn you put that well.
I'm going to throw that up on a vegan board I'm on, if you don't mind. Very eloquently done man.
No, I don't mind, feel free. I'm not even a big animal lover or strictly vegan myself, I just get annoyed at how fucking stupid the whole thing is. Drastic reduction of the consumption of animal-products is the only sensible option at this point, it's not (or rather, shouldn't be) a personal moral choice. Which is why I don't really like that guilt-tripping that often comes along with veganism "don't you love those cute fuzzy animals". No, it shouldn't even matter, doing the right and sensible thing has nothing to do with ones love for animals in the same way that standing up for a person's basic rights has nothing to do with how much I like them, it's a matter of basic universal ethical and rational principles.

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Re: Food

Post by Lost to the Void »

Here is what I cooked for dinner last night.
SCCT.jpg
SCCT.jpg (607.55 KiB) Viewed 808 times
It`s fairly involved but I`m trying to be extra nice to the missus at the moment and cook all her fave dishes as her mum is at deaths door with terminal cancer.

Originally this is a modern Moroccan dish, using fish, I`ve been cooking it since way back before I was vegan, veggie or anything, so over the years I have adjusted it and now veganised it. I`ve also gone some way to making it healthier as the original version was pretty naughty.

Saffron Citrus Chili Tofish with Saffron Risotto Cakes.

The Tofu (we don`t eat tofu very much, but when we do it`s good organic shit) is coated in kombu flakes (seaweed) which gives it a nice ocean flavour, and then (dry) polenta
As I don`t drain the tofu the seasoning sticks to the Tofu like a batter. (originally it would be deep fried battered fish) I then bake rather than stir fry, because it`s healthier, until the "batter" is crispy.

The sauce is complicated, you start with chopped onions, garlic, chili of choice (scotch bonnets for us) and grated courgette, fry it down caramelised with saffron (got to be proper stuff), then you add "fish stock" (I use veggie stock cubes with seaweed flakes added) and coconut syrup and reduce it a bit, until the syrup caramelises slightly, then you add chopped citrus fruits (4 oranges, 1 grapefruit, 1 lemon, 1 lime) and some zest of each. Then cook it until it reduces some more, and the fruit breaks apart.

The Risotto cakes are easy. Cook risotto in stock with some saffron, once it is proper risotto add (vegan) butter, put into moulds and throw in the oven or just hit it with a blowtorch (I was out of fuel this time) to crisp up the outsides.

Then serve the shit up. It`s very middle eastern in it`s contrasts of flavours (like fesenjan if you have ever had it), sweet, sour, zesty, but also buttery from the saffron, and hot.
The sauce is like the most amazingly complex sweet chilli sauce in the world.
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Stace
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Re: Food

Post by Stace »

Lost to the Void wrote:Here is what I cooked for dinner last night.
SCCT.jpg
It`s fairly involved but I`m trying to be extra nice to the missus at the moment and cook all her fave dishes as her mum is at deaths door with terminal cancer.

Originally this is a modern Moroccan dish, using fish, I`ve been cooking it since way back before I was vegan, veggie or anything, so over the years I have adjusted it and now veganised it. I`ve also gone some way to making it healthier as the original version was pretty naughty.

Saffron Citrus Chili Tofish with Saffron Risotto Cakes.

The Tofu (we don`t eat tofu very much, but when we do it`s good organic shit) is coated in kombu flakes (seaweed) which gives it a nice ocean flavour, and then (dry) polenta
As I don`t drain the tofu the seasoning sticks to the Tofu like a batter. (originally it would be deep fried battered fish) I then bake rather than stir fry, because it`s healthier, until the "batter" is crispy.

The sauce is complicated, you start with chopped onions, garlic, chili of choice (scotch bonnets for us) and grated courgette, fry it down caramelised with saffron (got to be proper stuff), then you add "fish stock" (I use veggie stock cubes with seaweed flakes added) and coconut syrup and reduce it a bit, until the syrup caramelises slightly, then you add chopped citrus fruits (4 oranges, 1 grapefruit, 1 lemon, 1 lime) and some zest of each. Then cook it until it reduces some more, and the fruit breaks apart.

The Risotto cakes are easy. Cook risotto in stock with some saffron, once it is proper risotto add (vegan) butter, put into moulds and throw in the oven or just hit it with a blowtorch (I was out of fuel this time) to crisp up the outsides.

Then serve the shit up. It`s very middle eastern in it`s contrasts of flavours (like fesenjan if you have ever had it), sweet, sour, zesty, but also buttery from the saffron, and hot.
The sauce is like the most amazingly complex sweet chilli sauce in the world.
Holy shit Voidy, that looks AMAZING. It sounds great. You're Vegan creations always, ALWAYS impress me.

I'll just go and console myself with the 3 bits of bread I am going to have for dinner.

I will say, this thread has given me a little push to do some cooking, which I so badly needed. I went and got some stuff to actually cook a big curry with tomorrow.

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Re: Food

Post by Lost to the Void »

StacieAnne wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:Here is what I cooked for dinner last night.
SCCT.jpg
It`s fairly involved but I`m trying to be extra nice to the missus at the moment and cook all her fave dishes as her mum is at deaths door with terminal cancer.

Originally this is a modern Moroccan dish, using fish, I`ve been cooking it since way back before I was vegan, veggie or anything, so over the years I have adjusted it and now veganised it. I`ve also gone some way to making it healthier as the original version was pretty naughty.

Saffron Citrus Chili Tofish with Saffron Risotto Cakes.

The Tofu (we don`t eat tofu very much, but when we do it`s good organic shit) is coated in kombu flakes (seaweed) which gives it a nice ocean flavour, and then (dry) polenta
As I don`t drain the tofu the seasoning sticks to the Tofu like a batter. (originally it would be deep fried battered fish) I then bake rather than stir fry, because it`s healthier, until the "batter" is crispy.

The sauce is complicated, you start with chopped onions, garlic, chili of choice (scotch bonnets for us) and grated courgette, fry it down caramelised with saffron (got to be proper stuff), then you add "fish stock" (I use veggie stock cubes with seaweed flakes added) and coconut syrup and reduce it a bit, until the syrup caramelises slightly, then you add chopped citrus fruits (4 oranges, 1 grapefruit, 1 lemon, 1 lime) and some zest of each. Then cook it until it reduces some more, and the fruit breaks apart.

The Risotto cakes are easy. Cook risotto in stock with some saffron, once it is proper risotto add (vegan) butter, put into moulds and throw in the oven or just hit it with a blowtorch (I was out of fuel this time) to crisp up the outsides.

Then serve the shit up. It`s very middle eastern in it`s contrasts of flavours (like fesenjan if you have ever had it), sweet, sour, zesty, but also buttery from the saffron, and hot.
The sauce is like the most amazingly complex sweet chilli sauce in the world.
Holy shit Voidy, that looks AMAZING. It sounds great. You're Vegan creations always, ALWAYS impress me.

I'll just go and console myself with the 3 bits of bread I am going to have for dinner.

I will say, this thread has given me a little push to do some cooking, which I so badly needed. I went and got some stuff to actually cook a big curry with tomorrow.

If you are in town some rime you can always visit, make some music with me in the studio and stay for dinner, bring your fella, make it a nice social ting.
You are very welcome here.
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Stace
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Re: Food

Post by Stace »

Lost to the Void wrote:
StacieAnne wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:Here is what I cooked for dinner last night.
SCCT.jpg
It`s fairly involved but I`m trying to be extra nice to the missus at the moment and cook all her fave dishes as her mum is at deaths door with terminal cancer.

Originally this is a modern Moroccan dish, using fish, I`ve been cooking it since way back before I was vegan, veggie or anything, so over the years I have adjusted it and now veganised it. I`ve also gone some way to making it healthier as the original version was pretty naughty.

Saffron Citrus Chili Tofish with Saffron Risotto Cakes.

The Tofu (we don`t eat tofu very much, but when we do it`s good organic shit) is coated in kombu flakes (seaweed) which gives it a nice ocean flavour, and then (dry) polenta
As I don`t drain the tofu the seasoning sticks to the Tofu like a batter. (originally it would be deep fried battered fish) I then bake rather than stir fry, because it`s healthier, until the "batter" is crispy.

The sauce is complicated, you start with chopped onions, garlic, chili of choice (scotch bonnets for us) and grated courgette, fry it down caramelised with saffron (got to be proper stuff), then you add "fish stock" (I use veggie stock cubes with seaweed flakes added) and coconut syrup and reduce it a bit, until the syrup caramelises slightly, then you add chopped citrus fruits (4 oranges, 1 grapefruit, 1 lemon, 1 lime) and some zest of each. Then cook it until it reduces some more, and the fruit breaks apart.

The Risotto cakes are easy. Cook risotto in stock with some saffron, once it is proper risotto add (vegan) butter, put into moulds and throw in the oven or just hit it with a blowtorch (I was out of fuel this time) to crisp up the outsides.

Then serve the shit up. It`s very middle eastern in it`s contrasts of flavours (like fesenjan if you have ever had it), sweet, sour, zesty, but also buttery from the saffron, and hot.
The sauce is like the most amazingly complex sweet chilli sauce in the world.
Holy shit Voidy, that looks AMAZING. It sounds great. You're Vegan creations always, ALWAYS impress me.

I'll just go and console myself with the 3 bits of bread I am going to have for dinner.

I will say, this thread has given me a little push to do some cooking, which I so badly needed. I went and got some stuff to actually cook a big curry with tomorrow.

If you are in town some rime you can always visit, make some music with me in the studio and stay for dinner, bring your fella, make it a nice social ting.
You are very welcome here.
Ahhh, Steve thank you so much. That would be really, really lovely. I'd love for that to happen.
If you and Angie ever find yourself anywhere near up this way I promise I can actually do better than 4 slices of bread when it comes to food and you are so very welcome here :) I have a modest but functional studio space as well :)

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Re: Food

Post by Lost to the Void »

Just cooked Uttapam with Goan banana and moong Dal, and Tarka Dal.

South Indian for the win.
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Re: Food

Post by Mslwte »

I really would like to try vegan only recipes and introduce them into our weekly meals. I'm not at the point where I want to go vegan (or vegetarian) 100% but I'm open minded to try and exclude meat meals into my diet.

Some of the pictures you have posted, Steve look very tasty. And tbh if they've got chilli's in them I'm game.
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Re: Food

Post by The_G »

Saw this article today and figured it might be of interest.

I haven't tried it, but I've heard that the "impossible burger" is an incredibly good (and convincing) alternative to minced beef that is 100% plant-based.

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Re: Food

Post by msl »

BTW plants are aware of their surrondings and feel pain. This is well documented...

just saying...

Personally I'm mainly vegetarian the last years and I've been pescatarian before that. My problem is with the industrial slaughter it is horrific and morally indefensible. I feel more and more people are coming to realise this, things are changing at least in the the west.

In the south and the east however (ie: the rest of the world, as "we" are only a very small percentage of the worlds population living in our comparatively wealthy bubble) we are very very far away from any such realisations.

I guess the fact that people like Bill Gates are investing heavily in lab grown meat there might be a a chance for a "market" led wider change and adoption. Where they see profit they will find a way to exploit it and our guilt.
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Re: Food

Post by Lost to the Void »

Reacting to stimuli is not the same as feeling pain, which requires a central nervous system. Responding to stimuli involves things such as turning to face light, or opening flowers in daytime etc, but pain requires a processing centre. Pain has an evolutionary process, it says "get the fuck out of here".
A plant can't run away, so pain has no purpose.

No credible biology papers have concluded that plants feel pain.
You could say they "feel" but they lack the capacity to give a fuck.
Essentially like someone who is medically brain dead.

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/xd74 ... l-pain-302

As for change... It's happening.
I keep up with "vegan" news being on several groups.
The new over the last year has been astounding.
As plant based lifestyles are growing exponentially it has caused huge profit damage to dairy companies in the states and here, who are now very worried and actively campaigning against it (the filthy cunts).
Big investors want to put money into it, and Tesco just announced their fastest growing food market is plant based "vegan" foodstuffs.
My missus own company, one of the largest food companies\groups in the world are now having talks about making massive changes. They have fingers everywhere and own many of the brand's you see on supermarket shelves.
More importantly China has pledged, with no external prompting, to reduce its meat consumption 50% by 2030!!
Not for ethical reasons (exactly) but for environmental reasons as meat production is one of the largest contributers to greenhouse gasses.

Change is a coming.
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