Food

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Re: Food

Post by 0dd »

I get your point and I agree that the industry is cruel to animals, but to me that point shouts say no to the industry, not say no to anithing of animal origin. There are such things as eco friendly farms, and not everything is as bad as the dairy industry. For instance no animal needs be harmed for you to get some eggs. Sure, industry chicken/egg farms are a sad sight but not every chicken farmer is in the industry. There are people who treat animals nicely and live in a symbiotic relationship with them. Same goes for the bees/honey I mentioned. That's why I consider it extreme. If you say no, under no circumstance am I doing/eating/drinking/reading/fucking etc. Then that is an extreme. I see it as in the movie Avatar, it is ok to do it if you truly respect the animal or whatever and the goods it's giving you. I consider plants even more important in that sence. Like the joke (about vegans duh): if you love animals so much, why are you eating their food?
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Re: Food

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Hades wrote: It's each to his/her own, I get that, I just don't get the philosophy behind choosing to be vegan.
See my story of a dairy cow above, if you can understand vegetarianism, then veganism follows exactly the same ethics, it just doesn`t hide from the inconvenient truths.

I was a pescatarian before I was a veggie, but I realised what is going on in the oceans was just as fucked
So I became full vegetarian.
I was ignorant to the ethics of veganism, and also made the same basic comments seen in this thread, just thought it was extreme.
Then I realised one of my good mates was a vegan, and I asked him why, and he very calmly pointed out the horrors of the animal food industry, which I was completely ignorant too.
After that, veganism seemed perfectly sensible, from an ethical standpoint, and actually quite easy to implement, as a lifestyle.
I still kinda get pissed at some vegans or the vegan "community" sometimes, as the hemp wearing trustafarian left wing cuck cliches are true in *some* cases (just as certain feminist cliches are true in some cases), so I do try to be a more rational voice within it.

However, Veganism is growing massively as more and more people become aware of the ethical situation of animal slavery and animal foodstuffs etc. It`s growing at such a rate that the dairy industry is having to start disinfo campaigns as the dairy industry has seen massive damage to profits in the last 2 years, which is awesome. And food companies have recognised it as a huge growth economy and are adapting to change.

I strongly believe that in 50 years we will look back on our treatment of animals in the same way we look back on slavery, or the holocaust as the ethical nightmares that they were.

Not that I`m excited about it, but lab grown meat will probably have a huge acceleration effect once it goes in to cheap, widespread production....
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Re: Food

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0dd wrote:I get your point and I agree that the industry is cruel to animals, but to me that point shouts say no to the industry, not say no to anithing of animal origin. There are such things as eco friendly farms, and not everything is as bad as the dairy industry. For instance no animal needs be harmed for you to get some eggs. Sure, industry chicken/egg farms are a sad sight but not every chicken farmer is in the industry. There are people who treat animals nicely and live in a symbiotic relationship with them. Same goes for the bees/honey I mentioned. That's why I consider it extreme. If you say no, under no circumstance am I doing/eating/drinking/reading/fucking etc. Then that is an extreme. I see it as in the movie Avatar, it is ok to do it if you truly respect the animal or whatever and the goods it's giving you. I consider plants even more important in that sence. Like the joke (about vegans duh): if you love animals so much, why are you eating their food?

Ah yes, the myth of the ethical farm where all the animals are happy and skip around smiling.
Just doesn`t exist I`m afraid. You are wlecome to find and point to any evidence of it though....
It`s a common excuse thrown up in every vegan discussion ever, one I also used once many years ago...
Ethical Slaughter.

Those words don`t seem at home together do they?


I don`t want to turn this in to a massive lecture, but yes, egg production does harm chickens.
When male babies are born they are thrown in to grinders alive (again, look it up) or gassed to death in barns with foam, as they are simply not required in egg production.
And the idea that free range written on your box of eggs means the chickens literally run and skip around in the country in freedom is also, extremely rare. Just do some simple research and you`ll see the reality of it.

Now, own your own chickens and get some eggs that way, sure, treat your chickens well..
I mean, I can`t be fucked to keep chickens just so I can eat ethical eggs (and of course then we can have the ethical debate about whether we can consider animals to be our property in the first place) , I can live without eggs, it`s easy to do so. Easier than keeping chickens.

I`m not going to go in to honey as well, there`s a whole series of shit I can write, but the bees aren`t doing so well at the moment.


So yeah, again, it`s not extreme ethics at all, it`s just ethics.

It`s really easy to be vegan, so there is no real extremes required. Buy/grow vegetables..... eat vegetables. It`s that simple.
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Re: Food

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My point (starts @ 6 min.) perfectly worded, as always, by the man. A man I know you trust.
youtu.be/dzMLBBOgUvA
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Re: Food

Post by SHIDZO »

Lost to the Void wrote:
0dd wrote:I get your point and I agree that the industry is cruel to animals, but to me that point shouts say no to the industry, not say no to anithing of animal origin. There are such things as eco friendly farms, and not everything is as bad as the dairy industry. For instance no animal needs be harmed for you to get some eggs. Sure, industry chicken/egg farms are a sad sight but not every chicken farmer is in the industry. There are people who treat animals nicely and live in a symbiotic relationship with them. Same goes for the bees/honey I mentioned. That's why I consider it extreme. If you say no, under no circumstance am I doing/eating/drinking/reading/fucking etc. Then that is an extreme. I see it as in the movie Avatar, it is ok to do it if you truly respect the animal or whatever and the goods it's giving you. I consider plants even more important in that sence. Like the joke (about vegans duh): if you love animals so much, why are you eating their food?

Ah yes, the myth of the ethical farm where all the animals are happy and skip around smiling.
Just doesn`t exist I`m afraid. You are wlecome to find and point to any evidence of it though....
It`s a common excuse thrown up in every vegan discussion ever, one I also used once many years ago...
Ethical Slaughter.

Those words don`t seem at home together do they?


I don`t want to turn this in to a massive lecture, but yes, egg production does harm chickens.
When male babies are born they are thrown in to grinders alive (again, look it up) or gassed to death in barns with foam, as they are simply not required in egg production.
And the idea that free range written on your box of eggs means the chickens literally run and skip around in the country in freedom is also, extremely rare. Just do some simple research and you`ll see the reality of it.

Now, own your own chickens and get some eggs that way, sure, treat your chickens well..
I mean, I can`t be fucked to keep chickens just so I can eat ethical eggs (and of course then we can have the ethical debate about whether we can consider animals to be our property in the first place) , I can live without eggs, it`s easy to do so. Easier than keeping chickens.

I`m not going to go in to honey as well, there`s a whole series of shit I can write, but the bees aren`t doing so well at the moment.


So yeah, again, it`s not extreme ethics at all, it`s just ethics.

It`s really easy to be vegan, so there is no real extremes required. Buy/grow vegetables..... eat vegetables. It`s that simple.
Me in the middle of butt-fuck nowhere on an orchard farm in Australia... They had a couple of free range chickens, part of the family, they were called the back-backas. I have never seen bigger eggs in my life.

I get your point, totally, the milk we drink is basically hormones and fat made for babies to grow. It's like feeding an adult breast milk, there is literally no point in drinking it...

Yeah man, honestly, makes me think. I mean, I love animals, I'm dreaming of owning a doggy day care once in my life and shelter and love all the street dogs in the world, yet I still eat meat. Bit hypocritical from my side here, I have to admit.

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Re: Food

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0dd wrote:My point (starts @ 6 min.) perfectly worded, as always, by the man. A man I know you trust.
youtu.be/dzMLBBOgUvA
A very weak argument. The plant argument is always the last straw argument in most vegan discussions too.
Seeing as we still don`t fully acknowledge (although the EU has recently recognised animal sentience) animal sentience, trying to talk about plant cognisance is grasping at straws (and ones with little to no evidence)

As we can witness and see actual acknowledged suffering within the sentient animals we cause suffering to, purely for our *taste pleasure* and not for our survival.
Watts argument falls down.
We know that sentient animals experience loss, experience frustration and boredom and mental health issues from captivity, experience physical pain as well as what we would caul mental suffering.

Killing for survival is one thing,
causing suffering for mere taste pleasure though.........

Like I said, it`s really easy to not participate in that process of suffering by eating a plant based diet, if you of course care about the suffering of others.

There is nothing extreme about the ethics of it, it`s a very simple ethical argument.
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Re: Food

Post by jordanneke »

I can totally see the need to be vegan, and respect people who do.

I am eating way less meat and choosing better eggs. But dam it. I love meat more than I love the planet, is what it really boils/grills/bbq's/roasts down to.

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Re: Food

Post by Hades »

SHIDZO wrote: Yeah man, honestly, makes me think. I mean, I love animals, I'm dreaming of owning a doggy day care once in my life and shelter and love all the street dogs in the world, yet I still eat meat. Bit hypocritical from my side here, I have to admit.
well, I'm pretty sure you're not alone ;)

What I always find hypocritical is how many meat eaters have never killed an animal before in order to eat it.
We all just find our meat neatly packed in the supermarket shelves. So nice and comfy...

I have killed chickens in order to eat them.
Not that I planned to, but I rang up one of my best friends one day, and he asked me if I didn't want to help him slaughter some of his chickens. Of course my 1st reaction was "hell no!!", but then I thought I'd be a total hypocrite if I always ate meat but wouldn't even be able to kill a chicken.
I'm not saying I enjoyed it, but we just found a "method" as less painful as possible and just got down to business.
He's currently raising 2 pigs. I've seen these from when they were all cute and little,
I feed them quite regularly,
but I already know I will have no problem helping to kill them when the time is there.

I think a lot of the problems our current society has with animals and eating habits would get solved if people were more familiar with what they ate. We got too detached, it's all abstract and so it's easier not to give a fuck... :|
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Re: Food

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jordanneke wrote:But dam it. I love meat more than I love the planet, is what it really boils/grills/bbq's/roasts down to.
Yeah, I mean that is what it comes down to.

I love meat too, well I used to, the smell of corpse flesh makes me feel sick now, but I loved me a good steak etc.

I just love animals more than I want them to suffer for my taste pleasure.

I get that some people don`t care about that suffering, totally, I mean I get why people join the army just so they can shoot people and blow shit up.

We all have differing levels of ethics.

I also get why some guys want women to stay in the home and do nothing but look after babies, or consider gay people to be unnatural, or even people who are racist.

I`m not down with it, but I get it, people want to be who they want to be and fuck everything else...... to varying degrees.

That`s why the world is so fucked I guess.


I mean, I`m not someone who walks in to a mcdonalds to lecture people, and I don`t stand around the meat counter at tesco with placards or shit.

There are huge environmental reasons for a plant based diet, that grow increasingly more pertinent as more and more babies plop out of more and more vaginas, but that`s not why I`m vegan.

I`m not what one would consider a "militant" vegan. When people ask me about it, I will go through the why`s and wherefore`s etc
Normally it comes after a bout of atypical (seen in this thread already) vegan "jokes" and stuff (I`m shocked no one has mentioned bacon yet).

For the most part I just get on with it, though I do share my vegan cooking delights on facebook, just to demonstrate how varied and interesting vegan food can be, mostly for the vegans I know (as the cliche is that it is all salad and rabbit food).

But, the point is, my life isn`t one of extremes. Well, I mean I am an unusual individual in terms of my thinking and philosophy, but the missus is a pretty normal and super decent person. All we do is buy veggies (and pulses and grains and nuts and stuff) and then I cook them and then we eat them.
Sometimes we eat stuff raw, and when we eat out, we eat at vegan places (of which there are many and more every day) or go for the vegan option.

I mean that`s it. We try to buy as ethically as possible, but lots of vegan companies tend to be high on ethics so the 2 go hand in hand anyway.

The only real pain in the ass is trying to buy cool mens shoes. That`s about it.
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Re: Food

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I'm just gonna take a pause here cause I'm on the phone this whole time and my eyes are starting to pop, and have some more work to do. I'll try to reply in a few hours.
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Re: Food

Post by SHIDZO »

Hades wrote:
SHIDZO wrote: Yeah man, honestly, makes me think. I mean, I love animals, I'm dreaming of owning a doggy day care once in my life and shelter and love all the street dogs in the world, yet I still eat meat. Bit hypocritical from my side here, I have to admit.
well, I'm pretty sure you're not alone ;)

What I always find hypocritical is how many meat eaters have never killed an animal before in order to eat it.
We all just find our meat neatly packed in the supermarket shelves. So nice and comfy...

I have killed chickens in order to eat them.
Not that I planned to, but I rang up one of my best friends one day, and he asked me if I didn't want to help him slaughter some of his chickens. Of course my 1st reaction was "hell no!!", but then I thought I'd be a total hypocrite if I always ate meat but wouldn't even be able to kill a chicken.
I'm not saying I enjoyed it, but we just found a "method" as less painful as possible and just got down to business.
He's currently raising 2 pigs. I've seen these from when they were all cute and little,
I feed them quite regularly,
but I already know I will have no problem helping to kill them when the time is there.

I think a lot of the problems our current society has with animals and eating habits would get solved if people were more familiar with what they ate. We got too detached, it's all abstract and so it's easier not to give a fuck... :|
My dad is a hunter, so I went through this when I was a boy, a rabbit in my case. Will never forget that. Hunters in Germany for example, when they cannot prove that they killed a certain amount of animals during one year they get banned from hunting for a year.

I agree with you, I think most of the people are just in denial or simply don't know because "it's deep in our roots to eat meat"... Or people are like "well, they do their "halal" stuff where they hang bulls and let them bleed out radda radda that's way worse"

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Re: Food

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That's bullshit and I'm not grabbing any straws. All life is sentient and I know you know that. The whole debate on animal/plant sentience come from the egoistic idea that only we are. Just because it's not evident to us doesn't make it untrue, just like the fact that the earth is round.Try to torture a plant and see if it doesn't suffer. It's just much more subtle because they're a more subtle lifeform in general just like animals are more subtle than us. Compare the apparency of a cow's suffering to a human's suffering. Plants are waaaaaay more subtle than both humans and animals. It's saying that it's ok to kill plants because they don't moan or cry like animals. So back to ethics, you can be disrespectfull and cruel to a carrot just as much as a cow or chicken or whatever, it's just easier on us, on the ego. Much easier to feel good about ourselves that way. In that sense, veganism is extreme. The point is not what you do (eat), it's how you do it. Atleast that's how I see it.

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Re: Food

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0dd wrote:Just because it's not evident to us doesn't make it untrue
Ok, until you show a body of evidence to prove otherwise, I'll go with current science which shows that plants have no central nervous system or any sentience.

However, more plants are killed to feed farm animals than to feed humans so by being vegan, less plants are killed, and so even if by some mad happenstance plants were sentient (we call this the screaming carrot argument) then being vegan is still reducing suffering.

Which is what veganism is about.
Reducing suffering.
I'm cool if you don't care about suffering.
I get it, I was there once as well.

But there is nothing extreme about it.
Like I said, we buy veg and we eat veg, and that's it. Simple.

Tonight I cooked Saffron Citrus Chillie Tofish with Saffron Risotto Cakes.
It was fucking delicious and no animals suffered because of it.

Anyway, I can at least congratulate you on making your way through all the standard arguments in order. Things generally end up on the screaming carrot argument, so yeah, I mean, if you have to grasp at those straws, then grasp.
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Re: Food

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Re: Food

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I don't have an issue with meat consumption, per se, as we are omnivores and so are designed to eat meat (as well as plants) to fill our niche in the food chain. But humans don't do anything in a balanced or balancing way, so really our consumptive practices--both industrial livestock and agriculture more generally--have the opposite effect on the food chain. Also the way we consume meat, particular mass cattle raising, has some very nasty consequences for the environment. So I get the decision to be vegan, or to ditch agriculture and switch to a hunting/foraging diet.

For me, I do eat meat, but like Jordan, I eat less of it than I used to. I also try my best to eat seasonal fruits/vegetables/dairy that are locally-grown on non-industrial farms. This is much harder to do in Singapore than LA, and much harder to do with kids than before I had them, but I'm trying my best.

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Re: Food

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The single worst thing for the environment you can do in your life is to have a kid.
So if you have kids, I just say accept your part in the end of everything and start burning tires in your back yard.
http://www.independent.co.uk/environmen ... 37961.html
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Re: Food

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Lost to the Void wrote:The single worst thing for the environment you can do in your life is to have a kid.
So if you have kids, I just say accept your part in the end of everything and start burning tires in your back yard.
http://www.independent.co.uk/environmen ... 37961.html
That's such a bullshit argument, by extension it's basically saying that the best thing you could do for the environment is to kill yourself, and take as many people with you as you can. Our animal instincts, and social constructs are usually7 too strong to let us make 'rational' decisions like that. Or maybe that's why America is so reluctant to ban guns, they've found a way to help the environment and still make a neat profit...


Ot: Cool to see so many vegans/vegetarians here.

When I cook it's always vegetarian, I still get eggs, milk and cheese from an ecological farm nearby because I find for some dishes it's really hard to substitute those. Experimenting with almonds to make my own milk and cheese, got it tasting pretty good actually but it's a bit too expensive to use it all the time atm.
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Re: Food

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vo0doo wrote: it's basically saying that the best thing you could do for the environment is to kill yourself, and take as many people with you as you can.
.

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Re: Food

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Unfortunately, there's very little we eat nowadays that doesn't come with a serious environmental or social cost. First you've got Brazilian rainforests chopped down for cattle ranchers, Indonesian/Malaysian rainforests chopped down for palm oil plantations or the insane amount of water in California that's redirected to irrigate almond farms. All environmental problems, but also human problems. In the first two cases, getting rid of rainforest hurts the world's natural ability to handle CO2, while cows in particular produce a shit ton of methane (literally). All three contribute to forest fires, and by extension, mudslides and air pollution. Then you have rising Western demand for "new" foods like soy and quinoa, which raises prices and lowers supply in regions where these are staple foods. Finally, there is all the crap (resource hogging, use of nasty pesticides, energy for global transportation, etc.) that comes along with industrialized, globalized agriculture and livestock.

This is obviously separate from the issue of animal cruelty that animates veganism/vegetarianism, except in the sense that eating some meats--beef in particular--is also extraordinarily bad for the environment. (I've read that quitting beef is the single biggest thing anyone can do to help the environment.)

But the sad fact is that, unless you are foraging or buying from small, ethically/sustainably-run farms, the food you are eating is dirty in some way.

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Re: Food

Post by Prophän »

Lost to the void wrote:

Oh the hilarity of posting meat stuff to a vegan in a bout of original high humour.

Just think, one day some real dirty fucker is going stick his penis in your daughter's ass.
And she is going to beg for more.

Haha hehe etc
Did you really had to hit so low ? You two were talking abt food why would you bring his children into this


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