Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

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ray alan
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Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by ray alan »

I've heard a lot of people say that the lyrical content and "pro-gang" messages in Grime are partly to blame for the upsurge in gang violence (especially in Nodnol)

I was wondering what people on here (who are themselves musicians) think about this view (and the view that music\video games etc has influence on violence in general) and what their views are about youths carrying knives etc, is it a case of monkey see monkey do (no racial connotations intended) (personally my father told me to use my fists and then once they are beaten, help them up and become friends)
It would be particularly interesting to hear from subsekters who actually live in London and if it's really that bad or are the media over playing it (yes you Daily Mail!!!)

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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by intrusav »

Grime literally fuelled the war in Iraq.
London needs more cheap oil cos man's not hot ..

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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by [wesellboxes] »

Knife violence associated with gangs has ebbed and flowed for the last 100 years in Scotland. Not somewhere particularly noted for it's grime output.

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Amøbe
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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by Amøbe »

No it is not.

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Plyphon
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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by Plyphon »

Grime?

Are you from 2006?

It's all about UK/Peckham Drill these days

youtu.be/f10yTpZzuv4

youtu.be/_e2M7hRniH4

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Lost to the Void
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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by Lost to the Void »

I don't think the gang celebrating music coming out of London helps London, but the problem is much more complex than "music did it".
And there is a serious serious problem going on with the mandem here. It's kids killing kids, and for the first time ever, just for a month, London's murder rate exceeded New York.
The postcode wars is serious.
But with all that London is still very safe, the violence is gang on gang.


There are (non government) organisations tackling this, and the community is finally dealing with it themselves as the crimes are predominantly amongst the black community here, it makes it very hard for the police to deal with, without being perceived as racially targeting, which they are but... Sorta with good reason.

The Somali community are actively trying to deal with their gang problems and there is an awesome organisation G.A.N.G and G circle.
Guiding A New Generation - Is a collective consisting of ex gang members who are positively engaging with their communities throughout London, trying to re-educate and reskill the youth. They are super positive and were straight in to the recent shooting up in seven sisters, going out amongst the community to declare their agenda and get people on board, on the night it happened.
The idea that being on the road is running a business, and those entrepreneurial skills could be pointed towards legitimate business to empower the black community is, I think, kinda awesome.
Some super lefties are accusing them of being racist for being black only and dealing only with black problems.
But I think it makes a lot of sense, deal with your own community before you try to fix anything else, there is nothing racist about that, if it is positive and especially if you have an inherent and justified distrust of the powers that be.

I dealt with lots of gangs both when I was doing the raves and when I was a bouncer. Some of these kids are carrying weapons because everyone is carrying weapons, it's a twisted self defence.
It's the same mentality that causes so much fun violence in America.
"If THEY are carrying guns then I need a gun".
Economic destitution, a lack of hope or apparent opportunities, poor education, broken family units (very very common unfortunately with gang kids), abandonment by the authorities, austerity ideology. All these things are pressure cooking these kids in to this crazy situation.
We can't write them off as "evil" when they are barely adults. Society has failed them and they in turn have failed society.
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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by willemb »

hear hear honourable Mr Void

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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by Stace »

It's the computer games damn it.

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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by Plyphon »

Yup, nail on the head from Voidloss.

It's pretty telling that a large percentage of the murders have been in the Tottenham/North East/East area and other areas with a high concentration of lower income communities.

Those people see money and wealth all around them yet can't see any future for themselves - it's no wonder gangs have formed and youngsters are turning to crime.

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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by ray alan »

Lost to the Void wrote:I don't think the gang celebrating music coming out of London helps London, but the problem is much more complex than "music did it".
And there is a serious serious problem going on with the mandem here. It's kids killing kids, and for the first time ever, just for a month, London's murder rate exceeded New York.
The postcode wars is serious.
But with all that London is still very safe, the violence is gang on gang.


There are (non government) organisations tackling this, and the community is finally dealing with it themselves as the crimes are predominantly amongst the black community here, it makes it very hard for the police to deal with, without being perceived as racially targeting, which they are but... Sorta with good reason.

The Somali community are actively trying to deal with their gang problems and there is an awesome organisation G.A.N.G and G circle.
Guiding A New Generation - Is a collective consisting of ex gang members who are positively engaging with their communities throughout London, trying to re-educate and reskill the youth. They are super positive and were straight in to the recent shooting up in seven sisters, going out amongst the community to declare their agenda and get people on board, on the night it happened.
The idea that being on the road is running a business, and those entrepreneurial skills could be pointed towards legitimate business to empower the black community is, I think, kinda awesome.
Some super lefties are accusing them of being racist for being black only and dealing only with black problems.
But I think it makes a lot of sense, deal with your own community before you try to fix anything else, there is nothing racist about that, if it is positive and especially if you have an inherent and justified distrust of the powers that be.

I dealt with lots of gangs both when I was doing the raves and when I was a bouncer. Some of these kids are carrying weapons because everyone is carrying weapons, it's a twisted self defence.
It's the same mentality that causes so much fun violence in America.
"If THEY are carrying guns then I need a gun".
Economic destitution, a lack of hope or apparent opportunities, poor education, broken family units (very very common unfortunately with gang kids), abandonment by the authorities, austerity ideology. All these things are pressure cooking these kids in to this crazy situation.
We can't write them off as "evil" when they are barely adults. Society has failed them and they in turn have failed society.
this is a very articulate, measured reply.
you make some good points.

the majority of the replies I presume are subsekt humour.
Being new I'm not sure about the etiquette around here but I had a good laugh at the replies esp the one about oil for London.

as for my own thoughts on the matter, i don't really know what can be done to stop the violence, harsher sentences for one would help and more police on the streets too (I realise the police may not be popular on here)
I certainly don't think that Grime or whatever it's called nowadays is to blame, although it does seem to mention Turf and Postcodes a lot. tribalism plays a part I'm sure.

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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by ray alan »

Plyphon wrote:Grime?

Are you from 2006?

It's all about UK/Peckham Drill these days

youtu.be/f10yTpZzuv4

youtu.be/_e2M7hRniH4
I can't watch the videos as I'm afraid I have a serious aversion to this type of music but thanks for putting me straight on the name. why is it called drill?

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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by intrusav »

You're asking if it's influential but you have "an aversion" to listening to it? That's just bizarre...

It's called drill because the music is built using samples of handheld diy drills ..

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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by lauren »

i could have sworn that it was called drill because of how it found it's foundations amongst the rife drilling community in south london. it's heritage is literally everywhere, the house i live in now is a converted drill house.

but yeah void hits it straight out the park in his first sentence "the problem is much more complex than "music did it"."

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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by Plyphon »

It came from Chicago, where 'drill' is slang for hitting/shooting someone or having a fight or whatever, or so Wiki tells me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill_music
"Drill" is a slang term for use of automatic weapons (old-time Chicago gangsters would 'drill' someone, see old films of the era), the current use now means to fight or retaliate, and "can be used for anything from females getting dolled up to all out war in the streets."[21] Dro City rapper Pacman, considered the stylistic originator of the genre, is credited as the first to apply the term to the local hip hop music
This article goes into the history somewhat:

http://www.dazeddigital.com/music/artic ... ll-at-will

Though between the humor here and puns like 'Drillary Clinton' and 'Drilluminati' I can't tell which way is up anymore.

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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by ray alan »

intrusav wrote:You're asking if it's influential but you have "an aversion" to listening to it? That's just bizarre...

It's called drill because the music is built using samples of handheld diy drills ..
it can still be influential even though I don't partake can't it?
the last time i checked I wasn't named in the top 100 influencers out there.

I can't believe they sample drills and turn it into music...boy I have a LOT to learn.

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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by ray alan »

Plyphon wrote:
Though between the humor here and puns like 'Drillary Clinton' and 'Drilluminati' I can't tell which way is up anymore.
I've only been on subsekt a couple of weeks and I already feel the same way.

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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by Amøbe »

ray alan wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:
this is a very articulate, measured reply.
you make some good points.

the majority of the replies I presume are subsekt humour.
Being new I'm not sure about the etiquette around here but I had a good laugh at the replies esp the one about oil for London.

as for my own thoughts on the matter, i don't really know what can be done to stop the violence, harsher sentences for one would help and more police on the streets too (I realise the police may not be popular on here)
I certainly don't think that Grime or whatever it's called nowadays is to blame, although it does seem to mention Turf and Postcodes a lot. tribalism plays a part I'm sure.
Harsher sentences does not work!! There was a gang war in my neighborhood last summer (two people in the apartment complex I live in where actually arrested and charged with murder). I used to work in a nightclub where one of the local gangs used to come. If there's one thing I for sure can say, then it is that harder sentences only make them more nervous (and thus ready to pull the trigger) and at the same time it makes the gap to the rest of society so much bigger. They will begin to wear their sentences as emblems of their loyalty and it will give them a feeling of rising up in the ranks.

More police and more work to integrate the police in the community seems to work - not harder sentences. And now I don't know police mentality in Britain, but if there's a consensus among the police that they can't do nothing wrong and that they will always have their asses covered in any case - then that's a issue that should be dealt with.

The police in my neighborhood where very vocal about how they were very sorry for the profiling they had to do as a consequence of it (the majority of the gang members were from middle Eastern descent). I think that was bold. To literally state that they knew what they did wasn't totally right and that they were sorry. (they were also quite concerned about showing a good side of the police force. Making sure to talk to little kids about their problems and playing a little football with them, if they were just patrolling a square for instance)

Most of these people are socially very frustrated and already feel extremely alienated by society. They are easy to make anxious - and you do not want that!

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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by lauren »

Amøbe wrote:
ray alan wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:
this is a very articulate, measured reply.
you make some good points.

the majority of the replies I presume are subsekt humour.
Being new I'm not sure about the etiquette around here but I had a good laugh at the replies esp the one about oil for London.

as for my own thoughts on the matter, i don't really know what can be done to stop the violence, harsher sentences for one would help and more police on the streets too (I realise the police may not be popular on here)
I certainly don't think that Grime or whatever it's called nowadays is to blame, although it does seem to mention Turf and Postcodes a lot. tribalism plays a part I'm sure.
Harsher sentences does not work!! There was a gang war in my neighborhood last summer (two people in the apartment complex I live in where actually arrested and charged with murder). I used to work in a nightclub where one of the local gangs used to come. If there's one thing I for sure can say, then it is that harder sentences only make them more nervous (and thus ready to pull the trigger) and at the same time it makes the gap to the rest of society so much bigger. They will begin to wear their sentences as emblems of their loyalty and it will give them a feeling of rising up in the ranks.

More police and more work to integrate the police in the community seems to work - not harder sentences. And now I don't know police mentality in Britain, but if there's a consensus among the police that they can't do nothing wrong and that they will always have their asses covered in any case - then that's a issue that should be dealt with.

The police in my neighborhood where very vocal about how they were very sorry for the profiling they had to do as a consequence of it (the majority of the gang members were from middle Eastern descent). I think that was bold. To literally state that they knew what they did wasn't totally right and that they were sorry. (they were also quite concerned about showing a good side of the police force. Making sure to talk to little kids about their problems and playing a little football with them, if they were just patrolling a square for instance)

Most of these people are socially very frustrated and already feel extremely alienated by society. They are easy to make anxious - and you do not want that!
if you add more police to the issue without addressing the root of these problems then it increases the amount of problems that can happen. the police in britain are quite good in a lot of aspects but to be honest i think these sorts of social issues rise from economic/political issues themselves, and that's not a problem the police can really solve, only deal with the problems that it causes.

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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by ray alan »

lauren wrote:
Harsher sentences does not work!! There was a gang war in my neighborhood last summer (two people in the apartment complex I live in where actually arrested and charged with murder). I used to work in a nightclub where one of the local gangs used to come. If there's one thing I for sure can say, then it is that harder sentences only make them more nervous (and thus ready to pull the trigger) and at the same time it makes the gap to the rest of society so much bigger. They will begin to wear their sentences as emblems of their loyalty and it will give them a feeling of rising up in the ranks
national service then.
2 years to learn to grow up. be adults and stop acting like idiots.

I few months ago I had an altercation with a jag sports car and when he came to a halt i got out, at this point his son got out no older than 14 and said "dad give me a knife, i scoffed and told him that if I saw a blade I would take ii off and shove it up his arse, at that point dad told him to get back in the car...this kid was 14!!!

send em to the army let them go to the middle east,then we'll see how brave they really are.

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Re: Is Grime to blame for upsurge in gang violence?

Post by Lost to the Void »

Prison is just a networking centre for crime.
People don't get rehabilitated at all.
At least in the UK.
We only see prison as punishment and not rehabilitation.

But fuuuuuuuck national service. If you are an army volunteer then you deserve everything that you get, but conscripting people in to be pawns of the violent state is no solution to crime. All you are doing there is giving the really big criminals their own slave army...
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