AI and music

[chava]

Nah, people who are into music can tell the difference between production line pop, made by committee and something with general heart and depth.
AI might be great for pop artists. Cheaper than paying writers and producers. You just need a pretty face, a functional singing voice, charisma and marketing/doing viral shit, and an AI providing the backing music.

Not sure AI is going to fill many stadiums.

Hope so. Not everyone are into music for "heart and depth". And music styles which are easily definable and are easily reduced to a technique will be emulated. Not just production line pop; also classical, jazz, techno (obviously!) and metal is in "danger". The only remaining artists standing will probably be the "outsider art" types.

[Lost to the Void]

Hope so. Not everyone are into music for "heart and depth".

And fuck those people. Couldn't give a fuck about them.

[Divjak]

Maybe you could guide AI to mangle audio, like an advanced always different FSU plugin? I would be cool with that. I am not talking "AI" smart plugins that "listen" to tracks and adapt the parameters, that sucks ass and is uninteresting, I want it to develop different FSU processing with my help, and your AI plugin would be unique in a way because you thought it how to fuck up your sound.

[willemb]

Divjak - this is possible and people are doing it already.

New models and projects are popping up on a weekly basis.

With a model/project I have been exploring ( Harmonai: Dance Diffusion ) you can do what I am summarising below. There are limitations, it works best for short sounds at the moment.

- Fine tune an existing model by sending it lots of samples ( say 2000 samples ) of the type you want, so for example kicks OR Porc hits OR short bass hits. Fine tuning is telling the model what kind of output you want. It is using the training of the original model where its already learned how to identify patterns, but then applies its learning to what you have finetuned it to. There are already pre-finetuned models available that you can use, for neurobasses, and kicks for example.

Once fine tuned you can do the following:

- have it generate a new sound from your finetuned model (noise is fed into diffusion, it recognises patterns in the noise, it creates a new sounds based on finetuning)
- feed it a sample and transform it (you give it a sample, you decide how much noise is added, so how much it gets transformed), it will then output a new sample based on that
- combine 2 samples, you send it 2 samples, it adds noise, and creates a new sound

You do need a lot of processing power (GPU and GPU RAM), you can do it at home with a very expensive Nvidia with at least 16 GB of RAM, or you can use online subscriptions to rent GPU resources, or you can try to do it for free with Google Colab (although you will be tempted to start paying subscription very quickly).

Also, it requires a lot of storage. Models I've seen are between 3 and 4GB, and when you make some changes you will want to save another copy. When experimenting the GBs add up quickly.

[DixieWhiskey]

It's so over

youtu.be/1LV1K69885E

I'm only kidding, but seriously, what will you do when you realize that that track you're dancing to could have been made by AI, and that you would not be able tell one way or the other. Would it detract from the experience?

In the short term it will definitely depend on the type of music. Techno for instance seems like it could be the type of music that would be able to fulfill its purpose -- from the consumption side of things -- even if no human was involved in its creation (besides their works being used as training data). Like already mentioned in this thread, maybe everything about music that isn't the music itself will become the single most relevant factor? It's kind of hard to even speculate given the rate at which things are evolving. Maybe the technology will hit a plateau, but right now it 's kind of dizzying.

Nah, people who are into music can tell the difference between production line pop, made by committee and something with general heart and depth.
AI might be great for pop artists. Cheaper than paying writers and producers. You just need a pretty face, a functional singing voice, charisma and marketing/doing viral shit, and an AI providing the backing music.

Not sure AI is going to fill many stadiums.

AI is definitely going to fill clubs sooner rather than later. Or at least, it could. I used to think that yeah, good music would always, almost by definition, necessitate active human involvement to produce. But, I'm not so sure anymore. Especially when you start to understand how these technologies actually work. You don't actually need heart and depth if you can just simulate it (diffuse it?) and get a result indistinguishable from a human. Granted, it still uses human input in the form of training data, so it could not produce anything if we hadn't produced something like it before that the model can be trained on.

I think an interesting question then is not if AI can produce art or music of enough quality, but if it can advance and innovate. I still don't understand the actual technology enough to say, but it seems to me that eventually an AI model could distill the patterns that make up what innovation is and reproduce it as well. At this point I'm perfectly willing to suspend my disbelief until proven otherwise.

[Lost to the Void]

It's so over

youtu.be/1LV1K69885E

I'm only kidding, but seriously, what will you do when you realize that that track you're dancing to could have been made by AI, and that you would not be able tell one way or the other. Would it detract from the experience?

In the short term it will definitely depend on the type of music. Techno for instance seems like it could be the type of music that would be able to fulfill its purpose -- from the consumption side of things -- even if no human was involved in its creation (besides their works being used as training data). Like already mentioned in this thread, maybe everything about music that isn't the music itself will become the single most relevant factor? It's kind of hard to even speculate given the rate at which things are evolving. Maybe the technology will hit a plateau, but right now it 's kind of dizzying.

Nah, people who are into music can tell the difference between production line pop, made by committee and something with general heart and depth.
AI might be great for pop artists. Cheaper than paying writers and producers. You just need a pretty face, a functional singing voice, charisma and marketing/doing viral shit, and an AI providing the backing music.

Not sure AI is going to fill many stadiums.

AI is definitely going to fill clubs sooner rather than later. Or at least, it could. I used to think that yeah, good music would always, almost by definition, necessitate active human involvement to produce. But, I'm not so sure anymore. Especially when you start to understand how these technologies actually work. You don't actually need heart and depth if you can just simulate it (diffuse it?) and get a result indistinguishable from a human. Granted, it still uses human input in the form of training data, so it could not produce anything if we hadn't produced something like it before that the model can be trained on.

I think an interesting question then is not if AI can produce art or music of enough quality, but if it can advance and innovate. I still don't understand the actual technology enough to say, but it seems to me that eventually an AI model could distill the patterns that make up what innovation is and reproduce it as well. At this point I'm perfectly willing to suspend my disbelief until proven otherwise.

It may replace DJ`s....lmay, but live music played by humans won`t change.

People still shit the bed if an artist uses a laptop instead of Hardware live.

They aren`t going to want to go see an AI play

And if they do, fuck those people too, not interested in them either. I will continue to go see live music performed by humans with all the millions of other people who do the same, and I will continue to form and maintain relationships with artists who express themselves honestly through their art, and those who enjoy that. Dance music/clubland however, has needed a shakeup for ages. The DJ paradigm has become a bit of a joke.

[DixieWhiskey]

It may replace DJ`s....lmay, but live music played by humans won`t change.

People still shit the bed if an artist uses a laptop instead of Hardware live.

They aren`t going to want to go see an AI play

Are you sure about that?

I will continue to go see live music performed by humans with all the millions of other people who do the same, and I will continue to form and maintain relationships with artists who express themselves honestly through their art, and those who enjoy that.

Cuz let me reformulate my first question. What will you do in 5, 10 or 30 years, when you go see a live performance by an artist you enjoy, only to find out later that it has an AI model as its ghost writer? You may be disappointed, but the enjoyment you already experienced wouldn't retroactively become any less genuine. People will have to come to terms with the fact that they may not always be able to tell. I mean it's either that, or starting a counterculture movement rejecting all of it outright. Actually that does seem likely to happen at some point, but it would still be the exception, not the norm. I wonder what lame name will the press be coming up with to label it.

So, what would you do? Would you resort to only engaging with artists that can prove are not being aided by AI? Would you begin to narrow your consumption to genres for which synthetic creation is increasingly difficult, leaving things out that you would previously have enjoyed due to the uncertainty of wether a computer was responsible for its creation? Would you stop consuming any music that didn't have a live improvisation component to it? Would there be a cutoff timeframe before which music would need to have been made for you to be comfortable listening to it?
Seems that the logical conclusion would be one becoming increasingly cynical about the origins of the art, to the point where the technology still is, one way or another, wether I like it or not, conditioning one's habits towards, and enjoyment of, said art. In this case not by one's engagement with it, but by one's rejection of it. Either way seems impossible to be able to just ignore it and continue on like we were up until that point.

[Lost to the Void]

Cuz let me reformulate my first question. What will you do in 5, 10 or 30 years, when you go see a live performance by an artist you enjoy, only to find out later that it has an AI model as its ghost writer?

So, what would you do? Would you resort to only engaging with artists that can prove are not being aided by AI?

Such a simple answer. When I find out an artist uses a ghost producer, I'll stop supporting them.
Same with AI.

So yes, I will resort to only engaging with artists who are not using AI.

I am only interested in art that is a human response to life and reality.

There will always be people who are the same. It may end up being niche or very underground. I am fine with this.

Until it is impossible to get needles for cartridges, people will still play vinyl, a medium that should have died 3 decades ago...........

[buffered]

People on here talking like all of a sudden artificial intelligence is going to jump in and then it's AI or no AI.
Elements of AI will be in everything in the near future. Slowly being adopted.
Ableton will employ it. Logic definately will. Why do you think this M1 was pushed so hard? The throughput is incredible.
Soon we'll have vsts based on text prompts. Huge sample libraries will be replaced with diffusion based AI systems. We've already seen things like this a few years ago. It's not going to be so cut and dry. It will be everywhere to the point where it is not a decision of AI or not but how much you engage with the tools.
If you really think you are going to be in music and avoid AI all together, you better stop updating all your software now.
The interesting thing in this conversation is that years ago techno/electronic whatever idm ...was based around this idea of the future. Working with machines. Automation, repetition, generative etc etc. Now that future is here and people are saying nah fuck off. 'Im so sick of 909. So sick of tropes. Techno is dead. Where is the new.?' well here it is. A totally new thing to use and exploit. Nah don't want it. Im a purest i only listen to sound that has 0% AI involved.

[Amøbe]

I took this screenshot the other day, and I think Henke hits the ball pretty clean.

To me music - and all art (even the heart- and soulless one) - exists for one reason only. It's the expression of what existing right now is like for a human. Not in a measurable way, but an artistic one.

Therefore art generated by an AI alone doesn't really make any sense - or it doesn't intrigue my interest. I see it mainly as a gimmick on how well you can train a system to mimick us - which is fun and fascinating.

However, I also think there's a place for using AI as a tool, where you collaborate with it, and I'm interested to see, what humans can do in that context.

[Lost to the Void]

People on here talking like all of a sudden artificial intelligence is going to jump in and then it's AI or no AI.
Elements of AI will be in everything in the near future. Slowly being adopted.
Ableton will employ it. Logic definately will. Why do you think this M1 was pushed so hard? The throughput is incredible.
Soon we'll have vsts based on text prompts. Huge sample libraries will be replaced with diffusion based AI systems. We've already seen things like this a few years ago. It's not going to be so cut and dry. It will be everywhere to the point where it is not a decision of AI or not but how much you engage with the tools.
If you really think you are going to be in music and avoid AI all together, you better stop updating all your software now.
The interesting thing in this conversation is that years ago techno/electronic whatever idm ...was based around this idea of the future. Working with machines. Automation, repetition, generative etc etc. Now that future is here and people are saying nah fuck off. 'Im so sick of 909. So sick of tropes. Techno is dead. Where is the new.?' well here it is. A totally new thing to use and exploit. Nah don't want it. Im a purest i only listen to sound that has 0% AI involved.

I don`t think everyone is saying fuck off.
I`M saying fuck off.

I don`t even like using arpeggiators.

[Lost to the Void]

To me music - and all art (even the heart- and soulless one) - exists for one reason only. It's the expression of what existing right now is like for a human. Not in a measurable way, but an artistic one.

Therefore art generated by an AI alone doesn't really make any sense - or it doesn't intrigue my interest. I see it mainly as a gimmick on how well you can train a system to mimick us - which is fun and fascinating.

However, I also think there's a place for using AI as a tool, where you collaborate with it, and I'm interested to see, what humans can do in that context.

That`s pretty much where I am.
Tools that help me get the sound from my head to the speakers, bring it on.
Tools that make the sound in the speakers for me....Yawn, zero satisfaction or Catharsis.
I`m interested in humans communicating their perspective on reality, not machines.

I`m very particular about the way I create, I don`t use arpeggiators or chord generators or any generative stuff that I have not controlled completely.
In that respect I`m somewhat of a creative fuhrer.
And the music I consume is generally deeply emotional and Cathartic, made by people who really put themself into their work, and thus it is very human..

I understand some don`t care so much about the process or intent, or just don`t care about anything other than getting fucked up and partying.
And I understand that some people are happy to get end results regardless of the means.

there is a place for everything in the world, but not in my world.

[Amøbe]

People on here talking like all of a sudden artificial intelligence is going to jump in and then it's AI or no AI.
Elements of AI will be in everything in the near future. Slowly being adopted.
Ableton will employ it. Logic definately will. Why do you think this M1 was pushed so hard? The throughput is incredible.
Soon we'll have vsts based on text prompts. Huge sample libraries will be replaced with diffusion based AI systems. We've already seen things like this a few years ago. It's not going to be so cut and dry. It will be everywhere to the point where it is not a decision of AI or not but how much you engage with the tools.
If you really think you are going to be in music and avoid AI all together, you better stop updating all your software now.
The interesting thing in this conversation is that years ago techno/electronic whatever idm ...was based around this idea of the future. Working with machines. Automation, repetition, generative etc etc. Now that future is here and people are saying nah fuck off. 'Im so sick of 909. So sick of tropes. Techno is dead. Where is the new.?' well here it is. A totally new thing to use and exploit. Nah don't want it. Im a purest i only listen to sound that has 0% AI involved.

Ha, we posted almost at the same time, so didn't even see your response.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Amøbe]

That`s pretty much where I am.
Tools that help me get the sound from my head to the speakers, bring it on.
Tools that make the sound in the speakers for me....Yawn, zero satisfaction or Catharsis.
I`m interested in humans communicating their perspective on reality, not machines.

I`m very particular about the way I create, I don`t use arpeggiators or chord generators or any generative stuff that I have not controlled completely.
In that respect I`m somewhat of a creative fuhrer.
And the music I consume is generally deeply emotional and Cathartic, made by people who really put themself into their work, and thus it is very human..

I understand some don`t care so much about the process or intent, or just don`t care about anything other than getting fucked up and partying.
And I understand that some people are happy to get end results regardless of the means.

there is a place for everything in the world, but not in my world.

I think I get what you're saying - but you are also taking the road of "I rather be able to control it myself". I think there is the potential to utilize algorithmic tools (AI being one of them) to reach somewhere you can't get to as a human individual. There are some sequencers that create patterns I would never be able to think of (or maybe I'm too lazy), which if you use them correctly can do some super cool stuff!

I'm really intrigued by that max device from hypnus, that's based on wave cycles - some of the demos I have seen have produced some great results that are very much un-human

[chava]

People on here talking like all of a sudden artificial intelligence is going to jump in and then it's AI or no AI.
Elements of AI will be in everything in the near future. Slowly being adopted.
Ableton will employ it. Logic definately will. Why do you think this M1 was pushed so hard? The throughput is incredible.
Soon we'll have vsts based on text prompts. Huge sample libraries will be replaced with diffusion based AI systems. We've already seen things like this a few years ago. It's not going to be so cut and dry. It will be everywhere to the point where it is not a decision of AI or not but how much you engage with the tools.
If you really think you are going to be in music and avoid AI all together, you better stop updating all your software now.
The interesting thing in this conversation is that years ago techno/electronic whatever idm ...was based around this idea of the future. Working with machines. Automation, repetition, generative etc etc. Now that future is here and people are saying nah fuck off. 'Im so sick of 909. So sick of tropes. Techno is dead. Where is the new.?' well here it is. A totally new thing to use and exploit. Nah don't want it. Im a purest i only listen to sound that has 0% AI involved.

I've stop updating software 10 years ago. And yes, techno was always more about the 909 than the future, that's for sure, and rightly so. There's nothing as empty as to be about 'the future' - what future if I might ask?

[Amøbe]

People on here talking like all of a sudden artificial intelligence is going to jump in and then it's AI or no AI.
Elements of AI will be in everything in the near future. Slowly being adopted.
Ableton will employ it. Logic definately will. Why do you think this M1 was pushed so hard? The throughput is incredible.
Soon we'll have vsts based on text prompts. Huge sample libraries will be replaced with diffusion based AI systems. We've already seen things like this a few years ago. It's not going to be so cut and dry. It will be everywhere to the point where it is not a decision of AI or not but how much you engage with the tools.
If you really think you are going to be in music and avoid AI all together, you better stop updating all your software now.
The interesting thing in this conversation is that years ago techno/electronic whatever idm ...was based around this idea of the future. Working with machines. Automation, repetition, generative etc etc. Now that future is here and people are saying nah fuck off. 'Im so sick of 909. So sick of tropes. Techno is dead. Where is the new.?' well here it is. A totally new thing to use and exploit. Nah don't want it. Im a purest i only listen to sound that has 0% AI involved.

I've stop updating software 10 years ago. And yes, techno was always more about the 909 than the future, that's for sure, and rightly so. There's nothing as empty as to be about 'the future' - what future if I might ask?

Don't you get all sorts of issues from that?

But I agree! Death to the future - long live the experiment of the now

[chava]

I took this screenshot the other day, and I think Henke hits the ball pretty clean.

If anything, it emphasizes the role of the DJ/curator/selector will be even more prevalent in the future. Compared to the actual composing (and engineering). What these AI acolytes forget though, is that man has a urge to create no matter what. Even create something that has already been done. Maybe we will even get "Human-powered" cover-bands that tour with setlist composed by the current "AI-star"?

[chava]

I've stop updating software 10 years ago. And yes, techno was always more about the 909 than the future, that's for sure, and rightly so. There's nothing as empty as to be about 'the future' - what future if I might ask?

Don't you get all sorts of issues from that?

As long as I never connect the laptop to the net, it's pure bliss. I've never even installed a single plugin, hah.

[Lost to the Void]

taking the road of "I rather be able to control it myself".

Exactly this. I started in bands, when I moved to electronic music I was always and still am very conscious about letting the machine do too much.
I'm very particular about how I work. Everything starts with the idea and I tend to have a pretty solid framework of a tune already in my head when I start working. My task is usually one of translation. Transferring that music in my head to the speakers.
If I don't have an idea, I don't make music.
I never just turn on the gear and see what happens, that part happens in my head.
When I experiment it's usually with individual devices to find out how they work. Then those tools sort of get added to my mental pallette, and then it gives me another way to realise my ideas.
I never use arpeggiators or any kind of algorithmic sequencers. To me, in my.... Religion? Of creativity, its letting the machine do too much. The machine must be controlled at all times. Hehe.
Maybe I watched too much 70's dystopian scifi as a kid about machines gone wrong.
Or too much late 90's anime about the nature of humanity and soul vs machine and simulation....
Maybe it's weird to think like this as a techno guy.
But I don't particularly like techno that much any more.

Not that I'm anti progress, far from it, I have no gear nostalgia. Couldn't give a fuck about the 909.
I'm always trying new experimental devices.

But I am the god of my creative universe.
The machine is my servant.
AI can suck my cock.
Not very well yet though.....

Every man and woman is a star.
One must have chaos within oneself to give birth to a dancing star.
And other famous occult quotes.

[DixieWhiskey]

Such a simple answer. When I find out an artist uses a ghost producer, I'll stop supporting them.
Same with AI.

So yes, I will resort to only engaging with artists who are not using AI.

I am only interested in art that is a human response to life and reality.

There will always be people who are the same. It may end up being niche or very underground. I am fine with this.

Until it is impossible to get needles for cartridges, people will still play vinyl, a medium that should have died 3 decades ago...........

Fair enough.

Therefore art generated by an AI alone doesn't really make any sense - or it doesn't intrigue my interest.

I am conflicted because I intuitively agree with this, but it also don't sit right with me that I couldn't make a judgement of a piece of music using that piece of music alone, without need for additional information. Why should I need metadata about the music (itc "is it made by a human?") to decide wether I enjoy it or not. I actually don't. And if I did but couldn't tell either way unless informed, then what the fuck can you even do.

If anything, it emphasizes the role of the DJ/curator/selector will be even more prevalent in the future. Compared to the actual composing (and engineering)

this makes a lot of sense actually. Of all the aspects of the whole electronic/dance/club music experience, being able to read the floor in real time and take people for a trip is perhaps harder for a AI model to learn than producing new music, for better or worse. All the information needed to conjure a new variation on the "electronic music track" theme, is encoded in actual audio track files, making it easily consumed and processed by a machine. I don't know how you would make a "track" that encodes the intuition of a human curator performing live track selection.

What these AI acolytes forget though, is that man has a urge to create no matter what. Even create something that has already been done.

Yeah, I believe that the "producing" part of the human creative endeavor, as opposed to the "consuming" side, will become increasingly prevalent.

Especially as automation begins to lift from us the burden of work and allows us to dedicate more of our time to fulfilling endeavors in a post scarcity utopia. Ok, I'm being ironic now but I do believe what I said at the beginning.

Maybe I watched too much 70's dystopian scifi as a kid about machines gone wrong.
Or too much late 90's anime about the nature of humanity and soul vs machine and simulation....

I love dystopian fiction but I kinda wish I had taken its warnings a little bit more seriously tbh. Terminator was supposed to be just a movie yaknow