AI and music

[[wesellboxes]]

the same type of people who used to enjoy boyzone or spice girls will be enjoying the AI that replaces Max Martin.

Say You'll Be There and especially Who Do You Think You Are shits all over a high % of most house and techno records. Also, someone having a moment in a shit provincial nightclub isn't any less profound than someone lost in the music at say Corsica Studios. In fact, it's more probably profound given the fact the only drugs they're likely to have is alcohol which isn't really known as an auditory enhancer.

AI will get to Surgeon or Blawan long before gets to the perfect pop record.

[Ben Kohonays]

the same type of people who used to enjoy boyzone or spice girls will be enjoying the AI that replaces Max Martin.

Say You'll Be There and especially Who Do You Think You Are shits all over a high % of most house and techno records. Also, someone having a moment in a shit provincial nightclub isn't any less profound than someone lost in the music at say Corsica Studios. In fact, it's more probably profound given the fact the only drugs they're likely to have is alcohol which isn't really known as an auditory enhancer.

AI will get to Surgeon or Blawan long before gets to the perfect pop record.

Strawman.

[[wesellboxes]]

Strawman.

Snob

[Ben Kohonays]

Strawman.

Snob

Not sure you understood there, I was talking about a Strawman Argument.

I didn't mention House or Techno.

[chava]

the same type of people who used to enjoy boyzone or spice girls will be enjoying the AI that replaces Max Martin.

Say You'll Be There and especially Who Do You Think You Are shits all over a high % of most house and techno records. Also, someone having a moment in a shit provincial nightclub isn't any less profound than someone lost in the music at say Corsica Studios. In fact, it's more probably profound given the fact the only drugs they're likely to have is alcohol which isn't really known as an auditory enhancer.

AI will get to Surgeon or Blawan long before gets to the perfect pop record.

Totally agree

[[wesellboxes]]

Not sure you understood there, I was talking about a Strawman Argument.

I didn't mention House or Techno.

Probably not But your line about people not being into music i.e. fans of boy bands would like AI songs because they're not into music as much.

Guess my two points were, 4,000 screaming fans at a pop concert are far more invested in their music than say 4,000 day-trippers at a Defected or business techno rave.

And of course, AI will write pop music as capitalism is the driving force here, but ever since Elvis, the best songwriters in the world have continually tried to formulise the perfect pop song, and it's largely alluded to them. Lennon/McCarty, Prince, Björn and Benny, Max Martin and so on, I'd put all that down to talent and human experience.

At the rate that technology is progressing, we're probably only a year away from an indistinguishable, and no doubt boring, AI DJ tools track. And not long after that, we're going to get Spotify lists and commercial radio stations comprising of only AI tracks intended for the background. I'm not denying this market exists. In fact, sit in any lounge bar or supper club for a few hours, and you'll hear we are there already.

You'll know the gig is truly fucked when AI can deliver a Be My Baby or Crazy In Love on demand and be accepted, but personally, I think that's still a tall order for a few years anyway.

[chava]

That's why we need a resurgence of the auteur-type techno producer, that sadly long has been overshadowed of the engineer types who constantly rambles about music tech and whatnot and has nothing personal at stake or no 'idea'. So less Surgeon, more Aphex.

[Lost to the Void]

Pop music IS Algorithmic to an extent.
There IS a formula and it hasn`t really been about the music for quite some time. It`s about the presentation and saturation, more than anything.
Pop music, in general, tends to stick to a limited variety of keys, chord progressions and bpms.
Hell the lyrics no longer even need to make a whole lot of sense, you can just string together platitudes.
I think we will have effective AI driven pop within the next few years for sure.

[Ben Kohonays]

Not sure you understood there, I was talking about a Strawman Argument.

I didn't mention House or Techno.

Probably not But your line about people not being into music i.e. fans of boy bands would like AI songs because they're not into music as much.

Guess my two points were, 4,000 screaming fans at a pop concert are far more invested in their music than say 4,000 day-trippers at a Defected or business techno rave.

No, they're more invested in the experience. They're invested in the faces in the band because they find them attractive. They're invested in the personalities because they see themselves in them in some way. They're invested in the clothes because it fits their taste in fashion. They're invested in being there because they can post about it on their social media, or because their best friend wanted to go and they wanted to share it with them. But the music?.......

Visit any charity shop and have a look through the CD rack, it's full of boy and girl bands and all the other disposable pop crap that gets churned out. You won't, however, find many CD's from Joy Division, Bjork, Velvet Underground, Pixies, Wu Tang etc. etc. So I'm not sure that 'investment' you mention is a particularly deep one.

[[wesellboxes]]

Pop music IS Algorithmic to an extent.
There IS a formula and it hasn`t really been about the music for quite some time. It`s about the presentation and saturation, more than anything.
Pop music, in general, tends to stick to a limited variety of keys, chord progressions and bpms.
Hell the lyrics no longer even need to make a whole lot of sense, you can just string together platitudes.

Agree with all that 100% but then you have the likes of Pete Waterman and Guy Chambers effectively saying you follow all that, you produce two near identical songs and one reaches #16 for a few weeks and is immediately forgotten about and one does triple platinum in 27 countries or something daft like that.

Loads of people in the music business, not just producers and artists but managers, A&R, press, labels, marketing etc have said they don't know what they are doing and for the most part are throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. AI is currently taking its cues from incomplete and sometimes chaotic information. What will be interesting, and scary, is if it can actually use intelligence to succeed that.

[[wesellboxes]]

No, they're more invested in the experience. They're invested in the faces in the band because they find them attractive. They're invested in the personalities because they see themselves in them in some way. They're invested in the clothes because it fits their taste in fashion. They're invested in being there because they can post about it on their social media, or because their best friend wanted to go and they wanted to share it with them. But the music?.......

The same could be easily said for the hippies, mod, punk, ska, indie, grunge, metal, house, techno, drum and bass or every other single genre. All movements and genres have people who are attracted to something big for whatever reason.

You never sat as a nine-year-old and played the same single or song taped from the radio 20 times in one day? I drove my folks daft with that shit and didn't particularly want to be a part of anything. I just wanted to hear Baggy Trousers over and over again.

Visit any charity shop and have a look through the CD rack, it's full of boy and girl bands and all the other disposable pop crap that gets churned out. You won't, however, find many CD's from Joy Division, Bjork, Velvet Underground, Pixies, Wu Tang etc. etc. So I'm not sure that 'investment' you mention is a particularly deep one.

I don't visit charity shops but friends who do and still collect CDs regularly post finds a lot more muso than the acts you mention. Though not sure if a charity shop is a useful barometer here.

[Ben Kohonays]

No, they're more invested in the experience. They're invested in the faces in the band because they find them attractive. They're invested in the personalities because they see themselves in them in some way. They're invested in the clothes because it fits their taste in fashion. They're invested in being there because they can post about it on their social media, or because their best friend wanted to go and they wanted to share it with them. But the music?.......

The same could be easily said for the hippies, mod, punk, ska, indie, grunge, metal, house, techno, drum and bass or every other single genre. All movements and genres have people who are attracted to something big for whatever reason.

Well we're both talking in generalisations here so yes it happens in other genres too, but the simple fact that some genres have to be sought out because they don't get much radio attention indicates a more passionate, discerning listener who's more invested in the music than just some trend. Speaking generally, of course.

Visit any charity shop and have a look through the CD rack, it's full of boy and girl bands and all the other disposable pop crap that gets churned out. You won't, however, find many CD's from Joy Division, Bjork, Velvet Underground, Pixies, Wu Tang etc. etc. So I'm not sure that 'investment' you mention is a particularly deep one.

I don't visit charity shops but friends who do and still collect CDs regularly post finds a lot more muso than the acts you mention. Though not sure if a charity shop is a useful barometer here.

Yes, it's possible to find more 'muso' acts in these places, but it's nowhere near as common. On the flipside, you likely won't just find the occasional girls aloud CD (or spice girls, or whoever) , you could quite easily see 5 or 6 copies of the same album, in the one shop.

A charity shop is absolutely a useful barometer, because not only does it indicate that the aforementioned CD's are no longer wanted, they were given away free by someone, further indicating the discposable nature of the music we're discussing.

[DixieWhiskey]

Find one article, one statement or anything describing how to "read the crowd"

There's a whole bunch if you google it. Articles, videos, interviews, forums you name it. Here's even a research paper in case you're interested https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... nightclubs

So I think it's safe to say you're in the minority regarding this particular point.

IF the crowd is not dancing, play a different tune, if the crowd is dancing carry on.

well you're gonna have to play a different tune either way. The question rather is do you understand in what way the next thing you play has to be different from the previous thing you played in order to get a different reaction, if you're not getting the one you want.

It`s not some magical skill it`s just basic common sense.

Skills are never magical but with experience and intelligence certain intuitions can be developed that feel like common sense to those who have it but are definitely not universal. It's a real phenomenon you have to watch out for if you intend to teach something you're very knowledgeable about. Otherwise you may alienate your students and frustrate yourself when you can't seem to get some seemingly very simple concept through their seemingly thick skulls. So perhaps it's something that "comes naturally" to you. Doesn't mean it's not real.

You are elevating that a DJ does in a way that your typical Guetta fan might

Again I'm pretty sure I'm not the one with the controversial opinion here. It's probably just as widely accepted as a true thing among whatever's the opposite of "typical Guetta fans" too. So if anything is some kind of mass delusion.

[Lost to the Void]

Find one article, one statement or anything describing how to "read the crowd"

There's a whole bunch if you google it. Articles, videos, interviews, forums you name it. Here's even a research paper in case you're interested https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... nightclubs

So I think it's safe to say you're in the minority regarding this particular point.

IF the crowd is not dancing, play a different tune, if the crowd is dancing carry on.

well you're gonna have to play a different tune either way. The question rather is do you understand in what way the next thing you play has to be different from the previous thing you played in order to get a different reaction, if you're not getting the one you want.

It`s not some magical skill it`s just basic common sense.

Skills are never magical but with experience and intelligence certain intuitions can be developed that feel like common sense to those who have it but are definitely not universal. It's a real phenomenon you have to watch out for if you intend to teach something you're very knowledgeable about. Otherwise you may alienate your students and frustrate yourself when you can't seem to get some seemingly very simple concept through their seemingly thick skulls. So perhaps it's something that "comes naturally" to you. Doesn't mean it's not real.

You are elevating that a DJ does in a way that your typical Guetta fan might

Again I'm pretty sure I'm not the one with the controversial opinion here. It's probably just as widely accepted as a true thing among whatever's the opposite of "typical Guetta fans" too. So if anything is some kind of mass delusion.

I`m under no illusion, I simply don`t foster the bullshit hype that the DJ community does to justify itself. It has adopted the pop music industry shite of hype and myth.

that link to the research paper you put up, well, here is the caliber of bullshit they are printing

"DJs also communicate with their body language and facial expressions. About a third of the participants noted that they make a point of visibly demonstrating their enthusiasm to the audience by smiling, waving their hands, cheering, or dancing while they are playing"

Not all research papers are worth the paper they are printed on man.

Go talk to working DJ`s about what "reading the crowd" actually involves.
None of them have studied psychology, body language, NLP etc etc. It`s total bollocks.
Is crowd dancing Yes -> Do more
No -> Do different.
That`s a simplification, but it`s basically true.
Now there are magic moments when everything feels in sync, and everything feels like one, and that`s when the delusion kicks in, because you forget all those moments when everything isn`t in sync.
Is Nina Kravicz reading the crowd when she dances about like a twat in front of the decks?
Is Cake Karaoke using his amazing crowd reading skills when he throws a cake in the face of some pliant pickme?
How about Skrillex when he jumps about on the mixer?
These are massive acts, getting the biggest crowds raising their arms in the air.
Increasingly it is hype and gimmicks that drives things now.
It's barely about the mixing any more.

I mean look at this crap
https://djingpro.com/how-to-read-the-crowd/
You will find reems of this bilge.
It`s like a "how to be successful at *insert bollocks advice here*" infomercial. None of it really talks about anything that isn`t obvious.
Find an actual article that isn`t just generic bollocks about "is the dance floor empty, are you smiling, are you playing hip hop in a techno club?" crap.
Talk to some actual DJ`s about is, they will either splutter out nonsense or you will get a blank stare.
A good club night is a holistic, synergistic affair requiring a number of elements for it to work.
Great DJ`s will have shit nights, and those with experience just accept it, don`t let it get to them, and carry on.
One of the key parts of a night is organising the Dj play order, understanding who you are booking and when they fit your night the best, and who to go before and after them.

They are just playing records man, stop drinking the delusion juice. You either like what they play, or you don`t. The overcomplication is simply an ego based over analysation of something that feels the need to over justify the reality of what it is. Which is why we now have cake throwing idiots, prerecorded DJ sets and wankers filming themselves with drones mixing in the middle of nowhere playing to nobody..
A Dj is one step away from being a pop artist miming on stage, and that`s why so much bullshit is built up around it.

Again, not coming down on DJ`s, I was one for years, and most of my friends are either DJ`s or producers or both.
There is a technicality to it of course, and you can be super creative with that skillset, but that really isn't that important to average punter, that's more for the minority of geeks with uber passion like us.
But most of those I know exist in the reality of knowing what it is they actually do, playing records to people who want to dance and get fucked up to records they like.
It's functional as much as it is creative. And has been hyped to a ridiculous spectacle now.
Once it was just people who fucking loved the music so much they wanted to share it with people.
Now the music is the back seat to the spectacle of the performing monkey, a means to an end.. Reading the crowd? Playing records is the easy bit.
Djing is about marketing. Web optimisation.

I blame Jeff Mills for his endless bullshit essays on futurism, when we know he`s just going to bash buttons on his 909 and play the Bells, again.......

[Ben Kohonays]

A Bunch of Top Music Advocates Want to Ensure AI Doesn’t Replace Your Favorite Artist

Text:

Artificial intelligence is shaping up to be the largest disruptor to the music industry since digital downloads, and it poses one of the most important existential questions to music creation the art form itself has ever faced. As much-covered chatbots like ChatGPT and a growing list of AI songwriting software show, the AI music revolution is closer than anyone previously thought. Now, some of the largest advocacy groups in music are looking to get in front of the tech and ensure a future in which AI doesn’t replace human music creators.

The Human Artistry Campaign officially launched on Thursday at SXSW in Austin, backed by a list of over 40 founding major music and entertainment organizations including the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA), the Recording Academy, the Music Artist Coalition, SAG-AFTRA, the Songwriters of North America and the National Music Publishers Association.

The organization’s call comes at an unprecedented time for the development of AI. While no tool has proven capable of spewing out a fully-formed Grammy-worthy pop song yet, the concept is growing fast. AI songwriting tools like Soundful and Boomy give users melodies and beats to use for songs in seconds at the push of a button. And while Nick Cave certainly didn’t seem impressed, chatbots can be tasked with writing songs in the stylings of an artist of their choosing. Meanwhile AI voice cloning software is getting closer to replicating celebrity voices, with ridiculous AI-generated Biden speeches going viral on TikTok.

“There is so much potential with AI. But it also presents risks to our creative community,” Harvey Mason Jr., CEO of the Recording Academy, said in a statement. “It’s crucial that we get this right early on so we don’t risk losing the artistic magic that only humans can create.”

The campaign acknowledged that AI will be useful in helping with creative expression, but it wants to center all advancements around human creators. With its launch, the group established several principles about ethical use of AI based around potential issues like copyright infringement, transparency and government policy.

“Human artistry is irreplicable. Recent developments in AI are remarkable, but we have seen the costs before of rushing heedlessly forward without real thought or respect for law and rights,” RIAA chairman and CEO Mitch Glazier said. “Our principles are designed to chart a healthy path for AI innovation that enhances and rewards human artistry, creativity, and performance.”

Among its seven listed principles, the campaign said that use of both copyrighted material and the voice and likeness of creators must require licenses and authorization. It also called on state and federal governments to ensure they wouldn’t create any exemptions for AI developers to skirt copyright, and that AI work itself wouldn’t get copyright protection if the work didn’t involve human creation. The campaign’s advocacy points along with its full list of participating companies and a petition are available on its website.

“It comes down to respect for creative workers and their craft,” SAG-AFTRA’s national executive director Duncan Crabtree-Ireland said in a statement. “We have long fought for protections against misappropriation of our members’ voices, likenesses and performances, and we are excited to continue that vital work in conjunction with our coalition partners. As technology continues to improve storytelling, we want to ensure humans are always at the center of the story.”

[Lost to the Void]

It`s unrealistic to try to stop this.

[Amøbe]

I really think that the threat of AI is out of proportions. The only thing I can imagine it will fulfil is stuff like small gaming studios, where they can't afford or know a composer. Everybody needs to chill out.

The first time a new trend is being started by AI (like how K-pop is currently dominating) I'd begin to be more interested.

However, I think it can fulfil other interesting purposes

[ekwipt]

It will be interesting if MAx4live can integrate ChatGPT for programming. There's already some software that's working in Adobe After Effects for Scripting.

I just tested out a plugin that uses Mabook Neural Engine for EQ emulation, it sounded pretty good to me

[Lost to the Void]

It will be interesting if MAx4live can integrate ChatGPT for programming. There's already some software that's working in Adobe After Effects for Scripting.

I just tested out a plugin that uses Mabook Neural Engine for EQ emulation, it sounded pretty good to me

That would be interesting.
I'm sure some boffin will do it in bitwig first due to the open way it works.

[Ben Kohonays]

It`s unrealistic to try to stop this.

Yeah. This has echoes of Napster 20 yrs ago and the record companies trying to lock the gate after the horse has bolted.