It is currently Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:47 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
 Post subject: Ableton mono signals
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:50 pm 
Offline
Gnasher

Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:34 am
Posts: 216
Location: Hamburg
Hi,
as far as I know there is no way of having a mono signal in ableton. Stereo signals can be monoized using utility or something similar but it is still two audiostreams just having identical data. Now what happens if a mono plugin is placed in the signal path? Is one of the two streams just cut while the other is running through the plugin or is one of the channels processed and the other one remains untouched or are the two channels mixed togehter?
If it is just one channel going into the plugin and the other one is cut. Which channel will go in and which wont? What happens when the audio is leaving the plugin? Will there be one channel muted or will the monosignal be split onto both channels? I am asking as there are mono versions of plugins and for sounds that go mono anyway (which in my case is lots - will get panned later of course) it probably would be way more cpu intense to have all of those processed in stereo.
Thanks for helping

Jens


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ableton mono signals
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:43 pm 
Offline
pregnant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:04 pm
Posts: 210
Dont get caught up on the actual signal visuals. Something can still be mono even if theres 2 bars on the channel level.

I arrange in FL studio and theres always a 2 sided channel level, but when i collapse a sound into mono, its 100% a mono signal now, regardless of what my eyes are seeing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ableton mono signals
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:04 am 
Offline
Gnasher

Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:34 am
Posts: 216
Location: Hamburg
Cool. Thanks for the answer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ableton mono signals
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:00 am 
Offline
unsure
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:06 pm
Posts: 383
You can test yourself by hard panning two channels left/right, grouping them and putting a mono on the group submix. What do you hear?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ableton mono signals
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:18 am 
Offline
Interact. Don't Spam.

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:11 am
Posts: 7
When you make a signal mono, you're effectively summing the left and right together. So neither signals are getting removed, if it were you would be losing information. Although be careful when you have wide sounds and would like to make them mono, you will possibly run into phasing problems. You might be thinking of the left signal being the mono signal usually in hardware. I usually use mono versions of EQ's or Compressors if I am treating a mono signal such as sub frequencies and bass drums. Sometimes you may want to make a sample that has some space on it, mono, so you throw on a mono vst or a utility. In regards to CPU usage, if you're sending a mono signal into a stereo vst, the vst is not processing any stereo signals so there wouldn't really be much difference in CPU usage.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ableton mono signals
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:49 pm 
Offline
Interchangeable
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Posts: 9193
Finesse wrote:
When you make a signal mono, you're effectively summing the left and right together.


Unless you use something like ableton Utility stereo control. Then, if you are setting it to mono by pulling down the stereo to zero percent you ARE losing information because you are just turning down the sides and not engaging mono summing.

So you have to be careful how you do things. The advantage of the mid side method is that you are always going to be phase coherent.

_________________
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
Next Release


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ableton mono signals
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:46 am 
Offline
Pig

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:35 am
Posts: 125
I find using the mono tool but selecting only the left or right is a far better result


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ableton mono signals
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:10 pm 
Offline
non reader

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:10 pm
Posts: 87
Location: Berlin
Lost to the Void wrote:
Unless you use something like ableton Utility stereo control. Then, if you are setting it to mono by pulling down the stereo to zero percent you ARE losing information because you are just turning down the sides and not engaging mono summing.


In this context I'm always wondering what the correct method is to check for mono compatibility on club systems. Summing or pulling down the stereo sides?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ableton mono signals
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:32 pm 
Offline
pregnant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:04 pm
Posts: 210
rsntr wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:
Unless you use something like ableton Utility stereo control. Then, if you are setting it to mono by pulling down the stereo to zero percent you ARE losing information because you are just turning down the sides and not engaging mono summing.


In this context I'm always wondering what the correct method is to check for mono compatibility on club systems. Summing or pulling down the stereo sides?


Sum to mono. Like said, taking away the sides is loosing information. You should still hear some stereo elements when summed in mono. Unlike if you turn them down by mid-side.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ableton mono signals
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:48 pm 
Offline
Alf Garnett
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:05 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Berlin
as far as i can tell, summing to mono loses the same information that pulling down the stereo to zero percent does. i wrote the two to disk and they were bit-identical

_________________
http://soundcloud.com/wayfu


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ableton mono signals
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:18 pm 
Offline
Interchangeable
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Posts: 9193
It shouldn't do.
Summing to mono adds everything together.
Reducing stereo via mid\side means you discard the side (difference) and only retain the mono (no difference)
The only way they would be the same is if there was no stereo information to begin with, or if the side information perfectly phase cancelled when mono summing.

_________________
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
Next Release


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ableton mono signals
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:37 pm 
Offline
Alf Garnett
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:05 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Berlin
well yeah, that's how they get the side information in the first place.

as in: the side channel is defined as "that which cancels out when you sum to mono"

_________________
http://soundcloud.com/wayfu


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ableton mono signals
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:48 pm 
Offline
Interchangeable
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Posts: 9193
Not everything in stereo\side will cancel out, it is difference, not purely phase\anti-phase, but essentially yes. There is some weirdness going on when you get combing in stereo.

However, interestingly, after a little research I have found a question I need to ask ableton development.

I always assumed the utility was a mid side, as when over 100% it begins reducing volume of the mid - thus acting as mid\side.
But some people are saying that below 100% it isn't discarding side it is actually mono summing is collapsing in to mono. The manual is unclear and I am not in the studio to do some proper tests.
I'll get clarity from abelton, but if this is the case then it means the Utility plugin is even more clever than I suspected, but also in some cases slightly less useful.

In any case, bringing this up has changed my perception of the plugin, so cheers, I'll start using it more again.

_________________
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
Next Release


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ableton mono signals
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:58 pm 
Offline
Alf Garnett
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:05 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Berlin
There shouldn't be any difference. M = (L+R)/2, S = (L-R)/2.

_________________
http://soundcloud.com/wayfu


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ableton mono signals
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:00 pm 
Offline
Interchangeable
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Posts: 9193
No, you're right, I'm mixing my polarity with phase.
So yeah, it shouldn't matter.

For some reason I'm thinking there is some other reason for a difference.
I've had a boatload of high potency Cannabis oil, so I can barely type.

But I'll do a test through a proper mid side matrix, there's something nagging at me that I can't put my finger on.

2morro though. Heh.

_________________
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
Next Release


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  



Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
skymiles v1.1 designed by CodeMiles Team -TemplatesDragon-.