Finishing tracks vs making great loops

[disparate]

It's the age-old bane of most techno producers - making a good loop then leaving it at that. Maybe you'll end up using a few parts of it in another loop or maybe just leaving it sitting there.

I've nothing against making loops, there's still plenty of bits of production that you can exercise by doing them, and I'm a believer in the power of a great loop, some of my favourite music just seems to take a great groove and make subtle changes to it for 8 minutes, so it seems to make sense to get as good as possible at making a groove so the rest can write itself. But do you guys try to force yourself to finish as many tracks as possible even when you can't really be bothered taking it beyond the loop? Do you feel you've improved by making yourself get on with it and get your arrangement, transitions and mixdown together even if you'd rather just make another nice 8-bar loop and you might end up with a full track that you're not that excited about? Am I talking rubbish and does your workflow just involve throwing some ideas into a 7 minute space then focusing on the groove and structure, rather than starting with a loop and building outwards? (as a fairly prolific producer advised me recently)

I'm starting to think it makes more sense to always eventually get out of the loop mindset as it gets you thinking of stuff like how to arrange different ideas within the context of a track (e.g. changing between different ideas, thinking about which elements to put in a breakdown, considering your A and B in structural terms, etc) and therefore you might come up with stuff you wouldn't normally have come across; also you only really practice doing a full mixdown or arranging a track if you actually make full tracks regularly, and if you're like me then you make a full track much, much less often than nice sounding loops that "have potential".

I know this is just a bunch of thoughts really, but does anyone have anything to say about this?

[Program]

This is a big problem for me too. I can never get out of that damn loop simply because I lack knowledge in certain parts of production, have no inspiration at a given moment or concentration etc. Anyways what I'm trying to do now, is working in parts of 8 or 4 bar loops which I then glue together in a track. Trying to do the best I can on each part. I saw a few good producers saying that you need to lay it out as fast as you can & then work backwards on polishing the intros, breaks, bridges n all.

[Mslwte]

I think a problem with a lot of tracks that are released is that the producer hasn't concentrated enough on the loop. Like you say great techno can be just a loop with subtle changes. I'm personally trying to make tracks with less transitions as I believe more transitions means less techno concentrate on the groove I'd say. I think that's the most important bit!

But.. If you want to make more tracks, with transitions and your finding it difficult, then the only option is to force yourself into it. Take your loop and copy it over 5,6,7 mins and subtract elements from the groove. In other words, work backwards weve all been there

[Mslwte]

This is a big problem for me too. I can never get out of that damn loop simply because I lack knowledge in certain parts of production, have no inspiration at a given moment or concentration etc. Anyways what I'm trying to do now, is working in parts of 8 or 4 bar loops which I then glue together in a track. Trying to do the best I can on each part. I saw a few good producers saying that you need to lay it out as fast as you can & then work backwards on polishing the intros, breaks, bridges n all.

That sounds like the old school you would of had to work with old drum machines etc.. Which is a positive thing to do!

[nervejammer]

Hey Disparate - here's some thing that i do to try and break the "playing with a loop cycle' - once i have a good groove going but nothing new is happening after an hour or so its important to realize that you are just fecking around - so its time to move on. I usually work on 2-3 tracks at the same time so if i've noticed that im dicking about then its time to try another track. Another trick for breaking the loop deadlock is to try and start arranging the few bits n bobs that you have - this usually works a treat cause it forces you to visualize how you want your track to be and you will find that you add stuff to fill in the missing pieces of the story - as it were.
Work for me anyhoo )

[gavisthename]

Yeah this is definitely the weakest area of my music making! I come out in cold sweats everytime its time to take the groove into the arrangement view! Aaaahh! Scary shit!

I've been constantly racking my brains trying to find an easy route for this process. One day I hope to find a recipe for success!

[Patriek]

I can feel the pain! I got tons of loops saved, but hardly any tracks. But sometimes the magic is just there and within a few hours i get my arrangement sorted. If you ask how...i have no clue. It just happens. I learned to live with the fact that i cannot produce fulls tracks on 'command'.

It does affect my motivation though. There are weeks were i do not touch my equipment at all due to a serious case of loopitis. Frustrated that i cannot finish my work!

[rktic]

Here are some ideas to break out of that box.

1. Produce first, mix later

Keep the amount of mixing during the loop building process as little as possible. There's a good chance you'll add elements during arrangement which will get you back to mixing everything again and again. Plus, the less time you spend listening to the same loop over and over the less it'll wear off for you.


2. Arranging blockwise

Duplicate your looped pattern to fill 8 minutes, start removing elements at the beginning, decide where the peaks are and remove stuff in between. This way you can create a rough layout very fast. Add breaks, variation and automation. Try forcing yourself to this a few times and you might be rewarded by gaining fun over the arrangement process again.


3. Fuck the arrangement, just record!

If you're dealing with rather little content that keeps you going anyway, why not arrange on the fly - the wildpitch way? Mute and unmute tracks, tweak some knobs live. If something goes wrong during the first take, keep going anyway - you can cut unwanted parts lateron. Maybe do a second and third take, see which parts in the individual takes you dig most and check if you can join the best parts together to a track.

That's what i do frequently, record stuff live and direct. Like on that one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WozdCFlpWas

You need a good midi controller setup for this but that way will most likely represent your personal flow the best. If it doesn't work out in details you can still rebuild the lively recorded arrangement according to your takes, add what's missing and done.

[nervejammer]

Ive read someplace that some folks start their arrange at the drop where it all kicks of and then arrange backwards from there. Never tried it myself, seems a bit clumsy to me :-/

[Patriek]

Tried tip #3 Ronny
Was a long time ago since i did it, but recording my 'loop' into a track was a lot of fun! Approached it if i would be doing a live PA thing.

[rktic]

There was a time when i made most of my tracks that third way, simply because i wanted to maintain a more natural flow. That's probably the toughest part with arranging, keeping it flowing.

It can be quite frustrating to start arranging with just a few elements. At a certain one might feel like there's not much to accomplish with 6-8 tracks. Which of course is utter bollock. Just a proper mindfuck.

[gavisthename]

I wouldnt know how to approach making a track live!

Can you explain more about your method?

[Críoch]

I do this too.. Get your basic groove going & assign stuff to a midi controller, then record it in as you tweak.

The scenes in Live are cool for this too, for adding variations / changes etc..

Jamming

[Patriek]

Exactly like John mentioned. These are also the moments that i am SO happy with my UC33. Some knobs and sliders, and you are set to go

[Mslwte]

Happy accidents also the great thing about ableton is that you can make random "scenes" and try different things out..

[sam]

i made loops for years before intentionally attempting to build any kind of structure into what i was doing, but i think what i've started to do gradually when i'm in the right mood is to build the process or evolution of the loops into a song itself.

it seems like when i organize sounds over a time line instead of looping some good stuff comes into play. when every single hit in the track only happens once it can open options that force me to consider what i'm actually doing or trying to achieve.

but i think also there are basically infinite aspects to choose to focus on and lots of ways to achieve the effect that a good piece of music has, rather than my default thinking in terms of loops vs timelines and live vs sequenced.

[Esh]

See, I have quite a big problem at the moment. I tend to start of with a clear vision of a full track and I aim towards it.

I get a solid loop going - great

I start arranging - great

A little bit of transitioning so it feels more like a track - great

Then something always get me, I tend to start fiddling with stuff as it tends to start sounding shitter than it did before. Even though When the loop was a loop and not a track I was more than happy with it. Even though i start with a fairly clear vision.

This happens to me on a regular basis and I end up with 3 or 4 different versions of the same track and as a consequence, I leave the track alone and start something new. Which is why even though the quality of my production is much better than it ever was, I am currently really struggling to finish a track.

Anyone facing similar problems to this and have managed to clear the hurdle, or people that know how to avoid it in the first place, some advice or tips would be appreciated?

cheers

[gavisthename]

See, I have quite a big problem at the moment. I tend to start of with a clear vision of a full track and I aim towards it.

I get a solid loop going - great

I start arranging - great

A little bit of transitioning so it feels more like a track - great

Then something always get me, I tend to start fiddling with stuff as it tends to start sounding shitter than it did before. Even though When the loop was a loop and not a track I was more than happy with it. Even though i start with a fairly clear vision.

This happens to me on a regular basis and I end up with 3 or 4 different versions of the same track and as a consequence, I leave the track alone and start something new. Which is why even though the quality of my production is much better than it ever was, I am currently really struggling to finish a track.

Anyone facing similar problems to this and have managed to clear the hurdle, or people that know how to avoid it in the first place, some advice or tips would be appreciated?

cheers

Yeah I got a similar problem to this at the moment. I think the best way to solve this, which is what I'm gonna do is to finish the arrangement first and completely ignore niggles I have with the mixing aspect.

For example at the moment I'm making a track and I've nearly finished the arrangement, I really want to tweak the bassline, but I know if I do, I'll end up changing the whole sound of the track which will end up messing with the arrangement because of automated low cuts and shit!

Its best for me to finish the arrangement .... SAVE IT! Then fuck about with alternative sounds, parameters etc .... if they sound worse, bin em ... at least the arrangement is finished!

[Esh]

Yeah that sounds like a good plan to be honest. I do my own head allot because it always starts so well but the more i work on it the less i like it and then by the end of the 4th - 5th sit down on a tune im at the stage where it feels more like data entry than something fun...........

right. time to find a way to leave work early to put this method into practice..................

[gavisthename]

Good luck Esh! Stay strong and ignore your urges!