subsekt

thebearmanbear wrote:This whole tuning drums to fit some perfect scale or harmony (except for maybe tuning toms)is born of the beta dance music producer era.nobody did this or even thought in such a regimented way until dance music production or production in general was democratised.

Wrong... people just didn`t quantify what they were doing, they just did it by ear.
Plenty of the best stuff, if you go back and look at early jungle for example, the drums were in tune.
The producers weren`t specifically "I am going to make the drums in tune" they were intuitively moving the pitch around until it sounded "right" (which is what I recommend anyway), but they certainly did tune their drums.
Drummers tune their drums too, it`s not just random.
Working intuitively is always the key.
When people start applying an overly strict methodology to things then yeah, it all gets a bit stale.
But that is the difference between a musician and a producer.
Dance music is definitely guilty of having too many producers and not enough musicians.

thebearmanbear wrote:This whole tuning drums to fit some perfect scale or harmony (except for maybe tuning toms)is born of the beta dance music producer era.nobody did this or even thought in such a regimented way until dance music production or production in general was democratised.you tune drums and elements for tension (or that is its most effective use)just listen to how tuning things or playing between tuningsby using a modulator that oscillates or alternates between the 2 ranges affects the bounce of low end elements for example.it can be quite effective if you move away from that very rigid way of looking at it

i think a large part of it would be lots of people using samples for drums instead of drum hardware or sampling drums themselves. if sample surfers are scrolling through 40,000 kick drums for example, they might unconsciously be drawn to the drums which they know are in key and avoid the ones labelled as out of key. tuning samples yourself though, you turn it until it sounds best. i think many people don't tune samples preferring to accept what they choose and then process with fx.

I have recently watched some tutorial videos from James Wiltshire (I know, I love wasting time doing lazy stuff) and he is completely against tuning kicks. His opinion is: "if it sounds good, it is good. If not, choose another kick".

Of course, at the end that means tuning using your ears anyways. Just dont force it.

nacorcb wrote:I have recently watched some tutorial videos from James Wiltshire (I know, I love wasting time doing lazy stuff) and he is completely against tuning kicks. His opinion is: "if it sounds good, it is good. If not, choose another kick".

Of course, at the end that means tuning using your ears anyways. Just dont force it.

Isn't that just another way of tuning?

Amøbe wrote:

nacorcb wrote:I have recently watched some tutorial videos from James Wiltshire (I know, I love wasting time doing lazy stuff) and he is completely against tuning kicks. His opinion is: "if it sounds good, it is good. If not, choose another kick".

Of course, at the end that means tuning using your ears anyways. Just dont force it.

Isn't that just another way of tuning?

Yeah basically, just more random.
Another throw mud at the wall and see if it sticks methodology basically.

Amøbe wrote:

nacorcb wrote:I have recently watched some tutorial videos from James Wiltshire (I know, I love wasting time doing lazy stuff) and he is completely against tuning kicks. His opinion is: "if it sounds good, it is good. If not, choose another kick".

Of course, at the end that means tuning using your ears anyways. Just dont force it.

Isn't that just another way of tuning?

There is an important difference though, he (James Wiltshire) thinks you should not tune the kick into the same key as the track to avoid possible phase cancelation problems with the bassline.

He also thinks we are not able to identify the key of the kick when it tail is below 50 Hz, so other than avoiding phase cancelation problems, tuning is pointless.

His opinion, of course. I somewhat agree with him.

Working with samples, I like to tune everything. I just don't tune it to anything in particular. I just like to give everything that added little bit of weirdness, as long as it doesn't fuck it up.

nacorcb wrote:

Amøbe wrote:

nacorcb wrote:I have recently watched some tutorial videos from James Wiltshire (I know, I love wasting time doing lazy stuff) and he is completely against tuning kicks. His opinion is: "if it sounds good, it is good. If not, choose another kick".

Of course, at the end that means tuning using your ears anyways. Just dont force it.

Isn't that just another way of tuning?

There is an important difference though, he (James Wiltshire) thinks you should not tune the kick into the same key as the track to avoid possible phase cancelation problems with the bassline.

He also thinks we are not able to identify the key of the kick when it tail is below 50 Hz, so other than avoiding phase cancelation problems, tuning is pointless.

His opinion, of course. I somewhat agree with him.

Tuning is absolutely not pointless, the man is a numpty.
Tuning in key, yeah sure, not always worth doing unless the kick is a sustained sounding kick.
I mean, for the type of crappy pop shite the freemasons make, the kick is not really that dominant, so yeah, no massive need to spend too much time on it....
But moving your kick around, pitch-wise, until it fits in with the track is pretty much techno 101.

Lost to the Void wrote:

Tuning is absolutely not pointless, the man is a numpty.
Tuning in key, yeah sure, not always worth doing unless the kick is a sustained sounding kick.
I mean, for the type of crappy pop shite the freemasons make, the kick is not really that dominant, so yeah, no massive need to spend too much time on it....
But moving your kick around, pitch-wise, until it fits in with the track is pretty much techno 101.[/quote]

Yep, maybe it was just a general advice for mainstream music, but the man knows his stuff.

He said short time ago he will upload a tutorial video demystifying this topic, we will see!

it depends on the type of sound you are making doesn't it? If you are more interested in texture than defined notes it just a matter of feel really. Maybe dynamics can be a bit more important here. But adjusting pitch of kick and percussion to work together is always something that comes up. It's either getting things to fit or getting the right contrast between elements.

"if it sounds good, it is good. If not, choose another kick"

Well that is essentially tuning a kick without a tune knob.

That Freemasons guy makes pretty boring stuff but he seems like a nice guy. Only watched the comparisons he does between old and new gear (sh101 vs system1 etc) and he seems to know what's what.

buffered wrote:
"if it sounds good, it is good. If not, choose another kick"

Well that is essentially tuning a kick without a tune knob.
.

Exactly. It's passive, sample surfing essentially (exactly what I expect a guy like him to do though....), just going through samples until one that "works" - ie one that is "in tune", comes along.

It's just easier and more efficient to find, or create the sound texture you like and then adjust the pitch to fit the tune.

Sample surfing is for people making generic commercial twaddle.......
This is techno, be creative, and not a lazy fuck.

^^This!!

Lost to the Void wrote:

buffered wrote:
"if it sounds good, it is good. If not, choose another kick"

Well that is essentially tuning a kick without a tune knob.
.

Exactly. It's passive, sample surfing essentially (exactly what I expect a guy like him to do though....), just going through samples until one that "works" - ie one that is "in tune", comes along.

It's just easier and more efficient to find, or create the sound texture you like and then adjust the pitch to fit the tune.

Sample surfing is for people making generic commercial twaddle.......
This is techno, be creative, and not a lazy fuck.

Word!

BTW, how do you create/tune your kicks? Sample layering, raw synthesis, kick dedicated synth...?

For me its all three...I like to layer analog stuff with a sample or so ideally. I started out learning how to write music making DnB forever ago, and it's all about layering.

I would agree with tuning everything by intuition but not everyone has an ear for it and the ones that do are swayed by what mood they're in. I''ve often repitched things and thought they worked and next day have to go again and next day feel that I was right the first time. Intuition shifts with mindset but ultimately you have to have an ear for it.
Some people simply haven't a note in their head ...

intrusav wrote:I would agree with tuning everything by intuition but not everyone has an ear for it and the ones that do are swayed by what mood they're in. I''ve often repitched things and thought they worked and next day have to go again and next day feel that I was right the first time. Intuition shifts with mindset but ultimately you have to have an ear for it ..

Yes you do, but you have to have an ear for music anyway.
Otherwise you are a plumber trying to fix a jet engine.

nacorcb wrote:
Word!

BTW, how do you create/tune your kicks? Sample layering, raw synthesis, kick dedicated synth...?

I don't really have a methodology for creation.
I generally use a combination of things.

Sometimes my kick might be a field recording of a chest freezer door being closed.
Or a combination of synthesised and sampled, or just synthesised or just sampled.
Then there is a myriad of processing that may apply.
Compression, some kind of distortion, saturation, reverb, granular delay, vocoder... Whatever.

There is normally a low cut at the end of the chain, cutting out whatever I don't want in the low end. And something that puts sub 250 in mono.

Other than that I try to do a different thing with each new EP.

We're long enough in this game to dispense with 909 + channel drive\compression in every tune I think.

Why settle on 250? General crossover point?

I once knew a vet who offered to service my washing machine.
It came back singing like a canary but still did fuckall to clean my clothes! ..

250 is just a safe number for controlling low end high impact transients when it comes to vinyl.

Lost to the Void wrote:

nacorcb wrote:
Word!

BTW, how do you create/tune your kicks? Sample layering, raw synthesis, kick dedicated synth...?

I don't really have a methodology for creation.
I generally use a combination of things.

Sometimes my kick might be a field recording of a chest freezer door being closed.
Or a combination of synthesised and sampled, or just synthesised or just sampled.
Then there is a myriad of processing that may apply.
Compression, some kind of distortion, saturation, reverb, granular delay, vocoder... Whatever.

There is normally a low cut at the end of the chain, cutting out whatever I don't want in the low end. And something that puts sub 250 in mono.

Other than that I try to do a different thing with each new EP.

We're long enough in this game to dispense with 909 + channel drive\compression in every tune I think.

Thank you very much, great advices as always.