Question about rms and competitive loudness

Electronic Music Production // Dark Arts
User avatar
0dd
Get in the back of the van
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:04 pm
Location: Serbia
Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by 0dd »

So I read in Void's home mastering guide about RMS and competitive loudness and, to keep it short, I downloaded mvMeter which has a dial to tune RMS, so I just put it to -12. My question is: is it ok to do it just like that, or should I get to the target RMS by tuning the separate channels? Also, what are the mechanics of the plugin, does it work like a limiter or what? The technical side of sound is a bit weird for me (RMS, phase cancellation on the top of my mind) if anyone can point me to a comprehensive guide/explanation i would be very grateful! Sorry if my writing is silly, 5 people are speaking as I write and english is not my native language. BTW Unbelievable forum, a lot of extremely useful info, and some great humor and open, helpful, and positive cunts here! You are the true heroes of techno!
"After silence that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music". Aldous Huxley

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by Lost to the Void »

Well -12 RMS doesn't mean anything until it is in relation to peak.
If you were setting your audio with the mvmeter prevail to -12RMS but you had 14db in peak over that, you just clipped 2db of peaks in the worst way possible.

So my original point about aiming for a final MIX level of around -12 RMS also comes with the assumption that you are then peaking around -1db.


So with that context in mind, the point is to produce your music with a maximum dynamic range (difference between peak and RMS) of around 11-12db.
If you produce consistently to this level, not only is it going to help your technique, it will attune your ears to a standard. As you continuously produce to this level you will learn what is right sounding and wrong sounding at this level, and your mix decisions will become easier and easier over time.

So just using a gain plugin I the master chain is completely the wrong way of going about things (unless you are producing to a DR of around 12 but at a much lower level).
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

User avatar
0dd
Get in the back of the van
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:04 pm
Location: Serbia
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by 0dd »

Well my master is showing -19db peak, and the mV is now around -10db. How would I go about changing the RMS without affecting peak? I'm sorry if I'm asking something retarded or not making sense, I'm trying really hard to translate my questions and the RMS in the room is +20db :x and I can't have fucking time alone for some time now so I got pissed and decided to just ask/read/write amidst the chaos. I really can't get a grip on how Hades and the lot of parents manage to have time for music, I'm starting to worry I'll never play again. Rant done.
"After silence that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music". Aldous Huxley

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by Lost to the Void »

Yeah it doesn't make a lot of sense.
I think I explained it pretty well in the mastering tutorial.

You should probably look in to gain staging, it helps get more consistency in terms of your channel and master levels. Producing with a peak of -19 says to me there is no gain staging going on at all.

Compression, saturation, soft clipping, envelope control, pre amp emulation, channel emulation. All these things can help gently control dynamic level.
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

User avatar
0dd
Get in the back of the van
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:04 pm
Location: Serbia
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by 0dd »

Well I worked on a track and adjusted the channels so that the master peaks around -6db. Then I re-read your guide, got that plug which showed around -4db RMS, so I dialed it back down to -12 and then the master peak showed around -19. I may be missing that master peak by a few numbers but it's -15 to -19. I do gain staging via Utility on each channel to adjust the relation of the sounds.
"After silence that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music". Aldous Huxley

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by Lost to the Void »

Utility has no meter, how can you consistently gain stage with it?
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by Lost to the Void »

Dilinger wrote:Well I worked on a track and adjusted the channels so that the master peaks around -6db. Then I re-read your guide, got that plug which showed around -4db RMS, so I dialed it back down to -12 and then the master peak showed around -19. I may be missing that master peak by a few numbers but it's -15 to -19. I do gain staging via Utility on each channel to adjust the relation of the sounds.
Wait...thats makes no sense. If your peaks were at -6 then it is impossible for your rms to have been -4. RMS is lower than peak.
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

User avatar
0dd
Get in the back of the van
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:04 pm
Location: Serbia
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by 0dd »

Well basicly I adjust gain with utility, listen with my ears and check the channel meters and make a relationship of the sounds that I'm happy with, while adjusting the whole so the master peaks at around -6. Should it go another way? Gonna check those levels to make sure, sorry.
"After silence that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music". Aldous Huxley

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by Lost to the Void »

Yeah, that`s not really what gain staging is about at all. There`s no consistency in doing it by ear, it`s about plugin/signal chain, not channel meters.
You do seem very confused with the whole process actually.
I`m going to be doing a new guide on production fundamentals which might help.
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

User avatar
0dd
Get in the back of the van
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:04 pm
Location: Serbia
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by 0dd »

Do you mean watching the fx chain and making sure it's not clipping anywhere along the chain? Also I've checked the levels and I was a bit more off. With mV disabled peak is at -4.71 and RMS hops around -1. So I dialed it back on mV to get -12 and then the peak is around -15. mV mode is set to RMS-12
"After silence that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music". Aldous Huxley

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by Lost to the Void »

It`s impossible for peaks to be -4 and RMS to be -1.
I think you probably need to read some basics on metering and what it means.
I`ll have a look for some good guides and link them up.
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

User avatar
nomadjames
mummy!!
Posts: 611
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:30 pm
Location: Pittsburgh
Contact:
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by nomadjames »

https://www.dubstepforum.com/forum/view ... hp?t=74832

Something I found helpful when I started learning about Gain Staging.
www.soundcloud.com/nomadjames

"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over." - Hunter S. Thompson

www.nomadjames.com

Pittsburgh Ableton
www.facebook.com/groups/558333351022659

User avatar
0dd
Get in the back of the van
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:04 pm
Location: Serbia
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by 0dd »

Here's a pic. Thanks for that read Nomad
Attachments
Untitled.jpg
Untitled.jpg (71.39 KiB) Viewed 1149 times
"After silence that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music". Aldous Huxley

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by Lost to the Void »

Yeah you are not using that meter right, nor reading it correctly. The RMS modes are k system modes. If you don't understand the K system, don't use em.
In RMS K metering mode 0db is -12 RMS, or yellow zone in k metering. Though I'm not quite sure how the calibration for the 3 zones works on this meter.

In fact as a matter I wouldn't suggest using that one at all, after doing some research there appear to be accuracy and timing issues.

Klanghelm does a great VU meter. Running in standard VU mode is great.
0db as -18dbfs is a great guide and a really good standard to work with.

It's why I recommend Sonimus Satson.

You need to use a meter you can understand, I recommend Brainworx bx meter. It's a very nice large meter, with nice peak and RMS hold function, and easy to read.
Or if you are strapped for cash, sonalksis free g has a nice meter.


I'll be doing a number of new tutorials\guides to go in the sticky collection this year.
One of them will be about levels and gain staging.
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

User avatar
0dd
Get in the back of the van
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:04 pm
Location: Serbia
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by 0dd »

Thanks a lot man. I'd really appreciate a retard guide to thebscience of sound, db, and the like. It interests me but can't really grasp it
"After silence that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music". Aldous Huxley

User avatar
0dd
Get in the back of the van
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:04 pm
Location: Serbia
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by 0dd »

Nomadjames, that forum is basicly saying what I considered gain staging, and what I did in the mentioned project. Kick was set around -11, bass a bit lower and then everything else a bit lower still, and set in a relationship that pleased me ie. Shaker is louder than hats, I don't want it like that, bring down the shaker, and all elements were built like that. As far as I can tell, that's what they consider gain staging as well.
"After silence that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music". Aldous Huxley

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by Lost to the Void »

Yeah, that forum thread is a little misleading and mostly ass.

Gainstaging (I`ll say this again) is NOT about channel faders.

Gainstaging is about input and inter device/plugin levels.

You set the gain staging on the output of the device, lets say, a synth, and it run in to a meter/gain (which is why sonimus satson is highly recommended). You set your gain level to 0db (or hotter if you are going for saturation), with 0db set as -18dbfs. This instantly gives plenty of headroom for the next plug in the chain (whatever it may be).
And sets a good working level before you have even touched the channel fader.
You then have a meter on the master channel (again, sonimus recommended here) and keep the levels hitting 0db there too (at -18dbfs), and then as you add tracks, keep adjusting their faders (downwards is more likely) to retain the master meter at 0db.

This leads to a consistent (and never clipping) gain structure.

It has NOTHING TO DO with your channel faders as such. Which, of course, are set to taste depending on what levels you want your various elements at.

This is why I say, you really appear to not understand the entire process of gain structure, levels, and metering.
So are running blindly throwing numbers around, not really understanding.
Nothing wrong with this, everyone starts at the beginning and moves along the path of knowledge and skill.
But walk before you fly, get back to basics and read up on sound gain structure practice, and metering etc.

And try to find something less confusion and headless chicken filled than that dubstep forum thread.
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

User avatar
Mattias
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:19 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by Mattias »

Music Page: http://www.facebook.com/Mattias.Fridell.Music
Soundcloud: http://soundcloud.com/fridell
Sample packs: http://mfsamples.bandcamp.com

Contention / 005

User avatar
0dd
Get in the back of the van
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:04 pm
Location: Serbia
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by 0dd »

So basically if I'm getting you, gain staging is just taking care that the sound is at an optimal level and not clipping at every step of the signal chain?
"After silence that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music". Aldous Huxley

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness

Post by Lost to the Void »

Yes, and by doing this, with a (european standard) of 0= -18dbfs it means you work consistently, and thus can monitor consistently which means EQ work becomes easier and easier over time, as do all mix related decisions.

And this is without even discussing peak and rms in master channel terms.
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.


Post Reply