Patchbay advice please !

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Alban
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Patchbay advice please !

Post by Alban »

Hi there !

I currently have two saffire pro 40 and an octopre (non dynamic)
The 16 In from saffire pro 40 are dedicated to synths (mono or stereo) /drum machine
Currently the octopre (8 I/O) is exclusively used to plug IN/out from my external effects which are :

Zoom RFX1000
Lexicon MPX1
Roland DEP5
Midiverb III
and Line6 Echo PARK (delay pedal)

As u can see if I want to setup ALL effects permanently I need two more IN. I send mostly mono signal to the effects, so I still have free outputs from octopre (and even more from the two saffire 40)
I will probably get more effects later too.

So my point is to use a patchbay only for effects at the moment. For that purpose, the samson plus ons sounds ideal and not expensive :)

Tell me if I'm wrong, but what I have to do is :

Connecting all OUT/IN from Octopre to patchbay rear OUT/IN via TRS jack cables.
Then all OUT(L/R)/IN(mono mostly atm) from effects to patchbay rear OUT/IN too.

1-8 octopre OUT => 1-8 rear OUT patchbay
MPX1 IN (mono atm) => 1 rear IN patchbay
ZoomRFX IN (mono atm) => 3 rear IN patchbay
DEP5 IN (mono atm) => 5 rear IN patchbay
Echopark (mono atm) => 7 rear IN patchbay
Midiverb III (mono atm) => 9 rear IN patchbay

1-8 octopre IN => 13-20 rear patchbay IN
MPX1 OUT L/R => 13-14 rear patchbay OUT
ZOOM OUT L/R => 15-16 rear patchbay OUT
DEP5 OUT L/R => 17-18 rear patchbay OUT
Echopark OUT L/R => 19-20 rear patchbay OUT
Midiverb III L/R => 21-22 rear patchbay OUT

IN/OUT not used => 11-12 + 23-24

This setup looks good for you ?
Everything in half-normal isn't it ?

Another thing (hope it does not sound too stupid :oops: )
Is it a problem to connect stereo (or mono) effect that uses asymmetric cable(s) inside a symmetrical plug (like the samson ones) ? For me it justs delete the symetrical link but I'm not sure at all...

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terryfalafel
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by terryfalafel »

Two things :

- Normally in and out of one device will be in the same row, above / below one another. So if input one of your soundcard is in 1 on the patch bay, then output 1 of your soundcard will be out 1 on the patchbay, not a connection further down the patchbay. This looks more like what I mean, for the comps / EQs on the right hand side at least :

Image

- It makes sense to wire the inputs of your effects as stereo rather than just mono. Get as much done as you can at the very beginning rather than having to go back and add or rework the wiring at a later date.

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Alban
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by Alban »

Thanks Terry.
Something like that makes more sense ?
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terryfalafel
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by terryfalafel »

Yep, looks good.

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Alban
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by Alban »

:D Thanks ! By the way new version of the samson patchbay plus -black one- and...cheaper

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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by innovine »

Having one machines outs above its in's makes it easy to find, sure, but it is not taking advantage of normalization. If you commonly have one effect on a particular send then setting it up with normalization means you can just rip out any patch cables to arrive back to your standard layout. This is often very useful. With the outs-over-the-ins approach above, you'll have to patch a bunch of stuff before you even start. Plus it leaves your gear in a permanent feedback loop if you have normalled connections (the samson is switchable, which is actually awesome if you are unsure exactly what to do).
Be prepared to experiment a lot with the bay, finding a nice solution is HARD.

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Alban
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by Alban »

Thanks innovine.
In a sense I find my first solution better because auxes from the octopre are directly routed to the effect input, and effects outputs directly routed to octopre inputs. Routings are super easy with the saffire control software. The amount of cables I need to plug is close to zero in that case (for the moment).
Tell me if I'm wrong but indeed the schema I draw looks much more complicated about connections.

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Hades
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by Hades »

innovine wrote:Having one machines outs above its in's makes it easy to find, sure, but it is not taking advantage of normalization. If you commonly have one effect on a particular send then setting it up with normalization means you can just rip out any patch cables to arrive back to your standard layout. This is often very useful. With the outs-over-the-ins approach above, you'll have to patch a bunch of stuff before you even start. Plus it leaves your gear in a permanent feedback loop if you have normalled connections (the samson is switchable, which is actually awesome if you are unsure exactly what to do).
Be prepared to experiment a lot with the bay, finding a nice solution is HARD.
^^ exactly this.
I'm sorry OP, but to me, it makes NO SENSE whatsoever to have one units/instruments outs routed to the position above the ins of the same unit/instrument.

I have 3 patchbays in my studio, and everything is run to and from my patchbays.
I hardly ever have to swap any patchcables because I just figured out what the most commonly used setup would be,
using my Midas mixer,
and connected all things matching that setup.

You basically try to avoid to use patch cables a lot,
you just use them if you constantly change your setup,
but even then, it makes no sense whatsoever to connect the ins and outs of the same piece of gear above each other,
because you're always gonna have a certain kind of routing scheme that you use on a fairly frequent basis,
and if you route them above each other, you're always gonna need patch cables, always.

I'll add some pics of my patchbays, not sure if they won't be extremely big for this site,
apologies if they are, but I don't have the time to resize them right now,
at least you'll be able to properly read the tiny reading on the labels when the pics are that huge... :oops: ;)

Image

Image

Image
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Hades
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by Hades »

and yeah, I have samson patchbays (as you can see on the pics) and they are always on half-normalized setting.

Also, one other piece of advice,
it's not really a problem connecting unbalanced cables to the balanced inputs of the samson,
BUT : I had one massive problem with the kick and 2 or 3 other sounds of my Xbase888,
there's quite a few dB difference between a balanced signal and an unbalanced signal,
and my Xbase888 had unbalanced outs, and at start I used balanced cables when I rewired my whole studio.
my kick became instantly unusable, just one massively loud klick sound.
When I changed the cable to an unbalanced one, the problem was gone.

Not saying this will happen with all your gear, just saying if you do have a problem :
look into the balanced/unbalanced cables part.
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Alban
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by Alban »

Thanks Hades. I forget i already have your patchbays pictures, but everything seems clear in my mind now.
I'll do the thing end of august, i'll share my results

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Hades
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by Hades »

if you have any questions, I'll be happy to help out,

but please, please,
(and I don't mean to sound like a total cunt, trust me),
don't just give us a list of your equipment,
without telling us how many ins and outs all this gear has.
Just tell us :
gear A : 4 ins, 2 outs
gear B : 164253 ins, 1 out
blablabla :D ;)

I really don't mean any offence, but I'm not gonna look up all your gear for you to see the amount of ins and outs just to plan your best connection scheme.
I love to help, but we do also have real life that takes up some of our time. ;)

Once you'll have your patchbays connected, you'll love it, and working in your studio will be a total breeze,
but we can't decide the most practical hookup in your place.
You gotta think about which connection should be connected most of the time,
and then hook these up top/bottom,
and then hook up all the rest.

good luck ! ;)
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terryfalafel
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by terryfalafel »

Depending on how you plan to route signals in and out of your outboard gear, normalling external effects isn't necessarily good practice. You can get feedback loops.

Normalling is generally for stuff like connecting microphone wall boxes directly to mixing desk preamp inputs, with the option to use a patch cable to route the mic to an external preamp.

If what you're doing works, it works. But it's not best practice

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Hades
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by Hades »

terryfalafel wrote:Depending on how you plan to route signals in and out of your outboard gear, normalling external effects isn't necessarily good practice. You can get feedback loops.

Normalling is generally for stuff like connecting microphone wall boxes directly to mixing desk preamp inputs, with the option to use a patch cable to route the mic to an external preamp.

If what you're doing works, it works. But it's not best practice
are you talking to me or OP Terry ?
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Hades
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by Hades »

in case you're talking to me terry :

there are only 3 options on the samson patchbay (which is definitely more than on most patchbays).

from L to R (very tiny switch) :

*Normal(ized)
*Thru
*Half-Normal(ized)

to quote the manual :

Thru :
When the channel is set to Thru the signal from the
bottom rear jack is connected straight through to the bottom front jack, and the
signal from the top rear jack is connected straight through to the top front jack.
Normal :
This configuration is commonly used to connect
outputs from MIDI instruments or effects processors. In Normalled mode, the
signal from the top rear jack is sent to the lower rear jack. When you insert a
jack into the top front jack you “break the normal” and the signal is sent out of
the top jack but is now disconnected from the bottom rear jack, with the bottom
front jack providing the direct connection to the bottom rear jack.
Half-Normal :
This configuration is commonly used for
mixing console Insert Points. In Half-normalled mode, the signal from the top
rear jack is sent to the lower rear jack. When you insert a jack into the top front
jack you DO NOT “break the normal”, so the signal is sent out of the top jack
and is still connected to the bottom rear jack. This allows you to split the signal
without interrupting the direct connection to the bottom rear jack.
the only reason I use "half-normal" is because I like the option to split up a signal into 2 signals,
whether this is to turn a mono signal into a stereo one,
or to use a dry and wet signal separately.

However, I don not ever pretend I am some kind of mastering engineer though.
I just know what works in my setup (as you said above).
And with this patchbay I think this sounds like the most practical option to use most of the time.
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by innovine »

Jesus, Hades.... I've been making tiny tiny labels and putting them above and below the samson jack sockets... never once occurred to me to put them vertically....


Here's another rule of thumb to help with setting up a patchbay layout..

Gear that is always connected to some other bit of gear shouldn't go near the bay. An example, a mic which always goes to a preamp, which always goes to an input on your mixer or soundcard... no point putting this into the patchbay, since its just a waste of cables and patchbay points.

Anything which you commonly have to reconnect to something else is an excellent candidate for being in the patch bay. For example, I have a copy of the main outs going to the bay, and the inputs to all my samplers. So if I want to sample what I'm hearing at any time, I can patch the mains to the appropriate sampler. I use normalization here, so that without any patch cables the main audio goes to my emu ultra. I need patches to route to the s950 or mpc or tape deck.

Stuff that you are unsure of how to connect, and may frequently be moved around, are excellent canditates for a through connection on the bay.. for example, various effect units that you like to reorder or route in weird ways.

You can also do some tricks by routing your mixer inserts and sends to the bay. For example, I have a few insert cables running from the mixer to the bay. I then can select which effect or eq unit i want on that insert cable (i have them colored) with a patch cable, and then plug the other end (same color) into the insert of the mixer channel. Then I can move it to the next channel, and so on. I find this useful, ymmv. I also have experimented with taking the sends to the patch bay, but actually I find I like knowing what the send knobs on the mixer do and have them always locked to one particular function (ones the reverb send, one adds to to the sidechain signal, etc) and these I now wire directly to the effect input.

You'll likely need to go through several cycles of arranging your patchbay layout, especially with respect to normalization. One useful tip during this is to label the cables going in AT THE BACK, and give yourself easy access to the back. This'll let you change the patchbay layout itself without trouble and encourages experimentation. I have all my labels on regular paper, with a tiny blob of blu-tak on the back. This lets me move the label when I move the cable at the back and definitely helps me keep order without losing flexibility.

Any normal connection which I haven't broken in a few months I seriously consider removing from the bay and wiring it directly instead.

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Hades
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by Hades »

innovine wrote:Jesus, Hades.... I've been making tiny tiny labels and putting them above and below the samson jack sockets... never once occurred to me to put them vertically....
:D
you almost make me feel smart there for a second or two.
sometimes you just don't think of the most simple solutions in life.

my girls are always stealing my pens in the studio, but I have 2 really thin markers that I keep especially for my patchbay labels.
If I see they are trying to steal those, I torture them for an hour or two.
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Hades
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by Hades »

innovine wrote: You'll likely need to go through several cycles of arranging your patchbay layout, especially with respect to normalization. One useful tip during this is to label the cables going in AT THE BACK, and give yourself easy access to the back. This'll let you change the patchbay layout itself without trouble and encourages experimentation. I have all my labels on regular paper, with a tiny blob of blu-tak on the back. This lets me move the label when I move the cable at the back and definitely helps me keep order without losing flexibility.
^^this is golden advice.
I colour labelled all my cables and wrote down what goes to where. (you can see some of this coloured stuff on the pics)
BUT I was stupid enough to put my patchbays and MIDI patchbay at the bottom of my rack...
Connecting stuff is a fucking nightmare.
Thank god I don't need to do it very often.

innovine wrote: Any normal connection which I haven't broken in a few months I seriously consider removing from the bay and wiring it directly instead.
I can see your point, but I really never do that.
My philosophy in the studio is to have the least work possible with technical shit and have the maximum time for music,
so when I got my Midas and the patchbays, I just seriously thought about my way of working,
and hooked up everything to and from the patchbays, so I can always route anything to anything.

btw, innovine, since you obviously have an extensive setup, can I ask you something ?
Did you ever have MIDI cables break down a lot over the years ?
I'm asking cause I had at least 4 MIDI cables break down in the last half year or so,
and in all the years I've had synths (must be 20+ years now), I had this happen maybe once or twice in total.
It's also the last thing I check when I have a problem with MIDI. I find it bizarre that it happens so often now.
I suspect the new MIDI cables I got are just shit quality.
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innovine
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by innovine »

You have a lot more patchbay than mine, so yeah maybe you can get away with it. But mine is pretty full.

Regarding technical stuff I know what you mean but that's some advice I really need to &start work on. I enjoy building and wiring the studio a lot, so I spend probably way too much time doing that and not enough actually making tunes. I do have a really neat and optimal workflow though :)


I have seen a midi cable or two go bad over the years, but as I solder all my midi cables myself, using shitty 4-core hookup wire with no strain relief and cheap contacts, I was not really surprised, the cable to to pin connection in my contacts is rather weak. I have a roland a880 midi patchbay and it shows midi signal activity on all the ports, so its real easy to check, and one of the first things I do (having midi incorrectly routed is common and I troubleshoot that often). Will replace all that with a cirklon one day.

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Senko
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by Senko »

Didn't want to start a new thread for this.

Assuming an arsenal of gear with unbalanced I/O's (and some that have both balanced and unbalanced), would it be correct to assume the use of a balanced patchbay such as the Samson using TS cables from equipment -> patchbay -> 18i20 interface. Just want to make sure.

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Lost to the Void
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Re: Patchbay advice please !

Post by Lost to the Void »

This is a handy little video
youtu.be/WuSuPUFVxw4
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