The VU meter

[loug]

Hi all,
I am not a pro, not even a good amateur, however I did my time, really did it; sitting in front of my daw forgetting to eat, in front of the screen for hours till 4 or 5 am, or mixing a single track for months, reworking another mix for the 78th time, or scouring the web for tutorials, online vids, torrents, forums, blogs, taking notes, analyzing favorite tracks, etc.... Luckily I'm done with all that yet still learning, in a different way sort of speak, and even though I still feel lost with every track, it doesn't matter because I've learned to enjoy just making music and jamming on my synths. And sometimes I even end up with a wav file that might be uploaded some day.

I rant because of three things: 1) even though I do not believe in that kind of tutorial-hunger approach anymore, I do know that technique, experience, and tricks all matter, like a guy said of famous engineers in their 50s who most likely have some degree of hearing loss, they make amazing sounding records not because they can hear up to 20kHz, but because they have experience in how frequencies should be mixed or work well together, or have different strategies they use for making things work out, and so on, the point is, experiences and tricks are gold, and 2) for some reason, of all the things that I learned from hours of tutorials I always felt that VU meters and RMS levels had some magic to them that can make them be sort of THE beacon, the guide amid the cacophony that comes out of my daw, the only coherent thing that can help give some sense to all the shit that comes out of a newbie's mixing session filled with hundreds of samples and VSTs, all smushed and battered. And I guess I feel that way because from all the bullshit that I learned from many mediocre tutorials and all the jargon I got from high quality ones, the one thing that stuck is a guy giving a tip for setting up levels, and he mentioned a rule of thumb he used with the kick being at a certain level and the bass 3db lower. Now I don't know if that rule is valid for all the pro engineers but it did help in giving a sense of direction to my workflow for some time. Lastly 3) I have never seen a set of valuable rules/ principles for working with VU meters or RMS levels condensed in a single place.

So, I post this topic with a question for the most experienced users in this forum: What is your most precious strategy when it comes to working with VU meters or RMS levels, if you would like to share it would be awesome, I imagine a sort of book of maxims... or, post of maxims.

[Mslwte]

With regards to UV meters and rules... I've been making music for a good 10 years now and I've only recently started using a UV meter. My opinion is mixed. while of course the "correct" thing to do is to gain stage all your levels etc., I've gone over a few older completed projects and gain staged the levels. Some I have lucked out on and some needed seriously pulling back, but what I have found is the pulling the levels back has seriously killed the mojo of the track. Maybe some of the mojo is digital clipping, regardless it has killed the vibe of the track for me so I've decided to leave the older tracks alone and will only use the UV meter going forward.

So as for rules, there shouldn't be any with myself anyway. I make heavily distorted, digital clipped, heavy, dense mixes. That's the way I like it. That's my interpretation of making music. Its not everyone's cup of tea but it is MY preference.

I think if you want to make super clean, spacious music you would need to follow the "rule book for gain staging" but I'm someone who is fucking about with audio until I find a jam that is working for me.

But I'm also interested in hear other peoples opinions on this and to see if I can learn something.

That said. There is a huge benefit that probably out weighs everything I have just said. USING A UV METER IS SAVING MY EARS! especially when wearing headphones. I'm now able to listen for longer periods of time without my ears ringing afterwards haha.

So I guess if using a UV meter is more pleasurable for my own ears, my music will probably more pleasurable for everyone else

[subvers^v]

A UV meter? How's that tan looking?

I'm in no way experienced or advanced in technique but my gut tells me to learn how to gain stage properly so that you can push it in a controlled way to achieve a more (consistently) fucked up sound.
I'm a long, long way off that tbh...

I think it just happened that you landed with 'that' sound you like but with some vague map of how you got there but not fully getting why it worked or took a certain direction?

Not knocking you as your stuff is nuts, in a good way, just my take on it.

For me, as a general opinion, the VU meter is basically the lines on the football pitch of sound. But that's just a kind of theoretical concept, as a starting point to define the limits. You can only push sound so far and stay within "acceptable levels" before you fall in to compromise mode, push one thing, others need to get pulled back...

[Lost to the Void]

I think th eproblem with a lot of these tutorials in techno land is that a lot of these people really aren`t very good at production. They are good at making their tracks their way, but in terms of good universal techniques and knowledge, a lot of the time they give really bad advice. You have to look at the real seasoned pro`s if you want good advice. People like Andrew Scheps or Matt Colton, Bob Katz or whatever

IF you are working to calibrated monitor settings you don`t even need to use VU`s, just your ears. I`ve talked about it many times in here so it`s worth a search.

When producing and listening, always do so at the same level, always produce to the same RMS (genre dependent, I used to use the K system and so had 2 different levels of RMS to work to), and your ears get to used to how things sound when they are "right" the need for metering goes away.

The main thing I use meters for is checking for clipping, and seeing the movement difference of peak and RMS, which can help as a guide to your dynamics not being totally ruined.

When producing I use meters just to ensure my gain staging is correct on the channel and bus level, and to make sure at the master bus level that I am hitting my target RMS to peak ratio. That`s it, it`s all about ear learning beyond that.

EVEN with harsh noise, the basic rules I follow apply, heavy distortion, clipping etc, the difference with my method and no method is that I control and understand what is clipping and why, rather than leaving things to chance and therefore ruining the possibility of replicable results. I have become somewhat known in the noise scene for tackling Noise music with care and fidelity, dealing with artist like KK Null, Huren, Merzbow, Masonna etc. Even those boys understand these principles, they are very useful. In fact the harder and heavier you go, the more you need to be clinical to not end up with unusable mush. Making clean open and punchy minimal is a piece of piss. That`s why so many people can make it. MAking effective dense distorted music is really hard to get right.

Calibrated monitoring. The most valuable thing I learned from Bob Katz, one of the best in the biz.


In mastering I use meters a lot more, but in mastering I am generally dealing with sub 1db changes so pinpoint accuracy is more of a concern.

[dubdub]

I think th eproblem with a lot of these tutorials in techno land is that a lot of these people really aren`t very good at production. They are good at making their tracks their way, but in terms of good universal techniques and knowledge, a lot of the time they give really bad advice. You have to look at the real seasoned pro`s if you want good advice. People like Andrew Scheps or Matt Colton, Bob Katz or whatever

IF you are working to calibrated monitor settings you don`t even need to use VU`s, just your ears. I`ve talked about it many times in here so it`s worth a search.

When producing and listening, always do so at the same level, always produce to the same RMS (genre dependent, I used to use the K system and so had 2 different levels of RMS to work to), and your ears get to used to how things sound when they are "right" the need for metering goes away.

The main thing I use meters for is checking for clipping, and seeing the movement difference of peak and RMS, which can help as a guide to your dynamics not being totally ruined.

When producing I use meters just to ensure my gain staging is correct on the channel and bus level, and to make sure at the master bus level that I am hitting my target RMS to peak ratio. That`s it, it`s all about ear learning beyond that.

EVEN with harsh noise, the basic rules I follow apply, heavy distortion, clipping etc, the difference with my method and no method is that I control and understand what is clipping and why, rather than leaving things to chance and therefore ruining the possibility of replicable results. I have become somewhat known in the noise scene for tackling Noise music with care and fidelity, dealing with artist like KK Null, Huren, Merzbow, Masonna etc. Even those boys understand these principles, they are very useful. In fact the harder and heavier you go, the more you need to be clinical to not end up with unusable mush. Making clean open and punchy minimal is a piece of piss. That`s why so many people can make it. MAking effective dense distorted music is really hard to get right.

Calibrated monitoring. The most valuable thing I learned from Bob Katz, one of the best in the biz.


In mastering I use meters a lot more, but in mastering I am generally dealing with sub 1db changes so pinpoint accuracy is more of a concern.

I've had three different plugins (Klanghelm VUMT, Plugin Alliance Metric AB, M4L Swiss meter= give me three different RMS values by about 1-2db. Is there a reason for that? They don't have any extra weighting options, I think.

[loug]

I think if you want to make super clean, spacious music you would need to follow the "rule book for gain staging" but I'm someone who is fucking about with audio until I find a jam that is working for me.

This is good. Lately when jamming I'm tweaking knobs and faders based on what feels right instead of rules I heard of from dubious tutorials. I guess my stuff will sound good to more people other than me after I get more years of experience

That`s it, it`s all about ear learning beyond that.

Cheers, I got more useful stuff than maxims about VU meters, that a fine pair of ears is best, and calibrated monitors help a big deal in getting that pair.

[loug]

I've had three different plugins (Klanghelm VUMT, Plugin Alliance Metric AB, M4L Swiss meter= give me three different RMS values by about 1-2db. Is there a reason for that? They don't have any extra weighting options, I think.

Klanghelm stuff is great, specially the VUMT deluxe which does have weighting options.

You can only push sound so far and stay within "acceptable levels" before you fall in to compromise mode, push one thing, others need to get pulled back...

That's why I liked that rule of 3db difference between kick and bass that I mentioned, like I said I'm not sure if it's a sound rule but it gave a clear fixed number to stick to when pushing/pulling stuff around.

[Lost to the Void]

I think th eproblem with a lot of these tutorials in techno land is that a lot of these people really aren`t very good at production. They are good at making their tracks their way, but in terms of good universal techniques and knowledge, a lot of the time they give really bad advice. You have to look at the real seasoned pro`s if you want good advice. People like Andrew Scheps or Matt Colton, Bob Katz or whatever

IF you are working to calibrated monitor settings you don`t even need to use VU`s, just your ears. I`ve talked about it many times in here so it`s worth a search.

When producing and listening, always do so at the same level, always produce to the same RMS (genre dependent, I used to use the K system and so had 2 different levels of RMS to work to), and your ears get to used to how things sound when they are "right" the need for metering goes away.

The main thing I use meters for is checking for clipping, and seeing the movement difference of peak and RMS, which can help as a guide to your dynamics not being totally ruined.

When producing I use meters just to ensure my gain staging is correct on the channel and bus level, and to make sure at the master bus level that I am hitting my target RMS to peak ratio. That`s it, it`s all about ear learning beyond that.

EVEN with harsh noise, the basic rules I follow apply, heavy distortion, clipping etc, the difference with my method and no method is that I control and understand what is clipping and why, rather than leaving things to chance and therefore ruining the possibility of replicable results. I have become somewhat known in the noise scene for tackling Noise music with care and fidelity, dealing with artist like KK Null, Huren, Merzbow, Masonna etc. Even those boys understand these principles, they are very useful. In fact the harder and heavier you go, the more you need to be clinical to not end up with unusable mush. Making clean open and punchy minimal is a piece of piss. That`s why so many people can make it. MAking effective dense distorted music is really hard to get right.

Calibrated monitoring. The most valuable thing I learned from Bob Katz, one of the best in the biz.


In mastering I use meters a lot more, but in mastering I am generally dealing with sub 1db changes so pinpoint accuracy is more of a concern.

I've had three different plugins (Klanghelm VUMT, Plugin Alliance Metric AB, M4L Swiss meter= give me three different RMS values by about 1-2db. Is there a reason for that? They don't have any extra weighting options, I think.

There isn't even consistency amongst lufs and truepeak meters. You will get fractionally different results across so called accurate mastering metering too.

You can usually adjust the ballistics on vu emulations.

Really, it's a case of picking your meter and sticking with it, learning how it relates to audio.

ITB I have been using the BX Meter for years as my main reference. It's not necessarily the best, or the most feature full, but I know it thoroughly.
I know what - 6 RMS C weighted mastered audio is going to sound through it if it moves a certain way compared to the peak level. I know what a good - 12rms vinyl pre is going to sound like. And what at - 12 mix etc etc will be.
Wether or not that rms translates as - 6 exactly to another meter really doesn't matter as its all about the relative relationship between what that meter says under certain Conditions and how the audio sounds under those conditions. As my monitoring is calibrated everything is working to a common standard and is replicable, it's a synergistic relationship.

[dubdub]

I think th eproblem with a lot of these tutorials in techno land is that a lot of these people really aren`t very good at production. They are good at making their tracks their way, but in terms of good universal techniques and knowledge, a lot of the time they give really bad advice. You have to look at the real seasoned pro`s if you want good advice. People like Andrew Scheps or Matt Colton, Bob Katz or whatever

IF you are working to calibrated monitor settings you don`t even need to use VU`s, just your ears. I`ve talked about it many times in here so it`s worth a search.

When producing and listening, always do so at the same level, always produce to the same RMS (genre dependent, I used to use the K system and so had 2 different levels of RMS to work to), and your ears get to used to how things sound when they are "right" the need for metering goes away.

The main thing I use meters for is checking for clipping, and seeing the movement difference of peak and RMS, which can help as a guide to your dynamics not being totally ruined.

When producing I use meters just to ensure my gain staging is correct on the channel and bus level, and to make sure at the master bus level that I am hitting my target RMS to peak ratio. That`s it, it`s all about ear learning beyond that.

EVEN with harsh noise, the basic rules I follow apply, heavy distortion, clipping etc, the difference with my method and no method is that I control and understand what is clipping and why, rather than leaving things to chance and therefore ruining the possibility of replicable results. I have become somewhat known in the noise scene for tackling Noise music with care and fidelity, dealing with artist like KK Null, Huren, Merzbow, Masonna etc. Even those boys understand these principles, they are very useful. In fact the harder and heavier you go, the more you need to be clinical to not end up with unusable mush. Making clean open and punchy minimal is a piece of piss. That`s why so many people can make it. MAking effective dense distorted music is really hard to get right.

Calibrated monitoring. The most valuable thing I learned from Bob Katz, one of the best in the biz.


In mastering I use meters a lot more, but in mastering I am generally dealing with sub 1db changes so pinpoint accuracy is more of a concern.

I've had three different plugins (Klanghelm VUMT, Plugin Alliance Metric AB, M4L Swiss meter= give me three different RMS values by about 1-2db. Is there a reason for that? They don't have any extra weighting options, I think.

There isn't even consistency amongst lufs and truepeak meters. You will get fractionally different results across so called accurate mastering metering too.

You can usually adjust the ballistics on vu emulations.

Really, it's a case of picking your meter and sticking with it, learning how it relates to audio.

ITB I have been using the BX Meter for years as my main reference. It's not necessarily the best, or the most feature full, but I know it thoroughly.
I know what - 6 RMS C weighted mastered audio is going to sound through it if it moves a certain way compared to the peak level. I know what a good - 12rms vinyl pre is going to sound like. And what at - 12 mix etc etc will be.
Wether or not that rms translates as - 6 exactly to another meter really doesn't matter as its all about the relative relationship between what that meter says under certain Conditions and how the audio sounds under those conditions. As my monitoring is calibrated everything is working to a common standard and is replicable, it's a synergistic relationship.

What exactly do you mean by "it if it moves a certain way compared to the peak level"? Do you mean the way the peak and RMS meter ballistics move in comparison to each other?

[Lost to the Void]

Yes

[dubdub]

Yes

Right, got it.

Do you have a target dbFS peak level that you aim for? I used to go for -6 (I know it's arbitrary, just picked that one) but recently I've been trying 0db VU = -18 RMS, which usually ends up being anywhere from -6 to -10 dbFS peak. I guess it is potentially less accurate due to larger fluctuations but it is also a less cumbersome target.

[mervv]

Yes

Right, got it.

Do you have a target dbFS peak level that you aim for? I used to go for -6 (I know it's arbitrary, just picked that one) but recently I've been trying 0db VU = -18 RMS, which usually ends up being anywhere from -6 to -10 dbFS peak. I guess it is potentially less accurate due to larger fluctuations but it is also a less cumbersome target.

Void will probably have a more technical, informed answer, but I've always aimed for 0db VU, mostly because the first VU emulation I really started using was the one in Sonimus. The manual suggests doing that on each channel and then adjusting your channel faders to get the mix balance you want. Not sure the technicalities of why that's ideal, but I noticed that after doing that everything seemed to sit together more nicely, and just balancing the volume with the faders seemed to go much further than before.

[Lost to the Void]

Yes

Right, got it.

Do you have a target dbFS peak level that you aim for? I used to go for -6 (I know it's arbitrary, just picked that one) but recently I've been trying 0db VU = -18 RMS, which usually ends up being anywhere from -6 to -10 dbFS peak. I guess it is potentially less accurate due to larger fluctuations but it is also a less cumbersome target.

I usually have momentary peaks at - 1 with a true peak meter there just to make sure no peaks are jumping the meter. But average peak is generally around - 3.
I generally aim for a DR around 9-12db with Dance music (mixes).
I'm using a lot of super clean clipping in mixing these days, at the channel level, as I am generally thinking about the mastering too, and it means the master engineer has lot less faff when dealing with final levelling.

[Lost to the Void]

Yes

Right, got it.

Do you have a target dbFS peak level that you aim for? I used to go for -6 (I know it's arbitrary, just picked that one) but recently I've been trying 0db VU = -18 RMS, which usually ends up being anywhere from -6 to -10 dbFS peak. I guess it is potentially less accurate due to larger fluctuations but it is also a less cumbersome target.

Void will probably have a more technical, informed answer, but I've always aimed for 0db VU, mostly because the first VU emulation I really started using was the one in Sonimus. The manual suggests doing that on each channel and then adjusting your channel faders to get the mix balance you want. Not sure the technicalities of why that's ideal, but I noticed that after doing that everything seemed to sit together more nicely, and just balancing the volume with the faders seemed to go much further than before.

That's good practice. I work that way too. The mix bus compression then takes things up to final peak level.

[loug]

Void will probably have a more technical, informed answer, but I've always aimed for 0db VU, mostly because the first VU emulation I really started using was the one in Sonimus. The manual suggests doing that on each channel and then adjusting your channel faders to get the mix balance you want. Not sure the technicalities of why that's ideal, but I noticed that after doing that everything seemed to sit together more nicely, and just balancing the volume with the faders seemed to go much further than before.

Can't wait to try this method, thanks!
Any idea what level this Sonimus meter is calibrated to?

[mervv]

That's good practice. I work that way too. The mix bus compression then takes things up to final peak level.

Is it good practice simply because it inclines the user to make more intelligent decisions, or is it good practice for some kind of acoustics/audio reason?

[mervv]

Can't wait to try this method, thanks!
Any idea what level this Sonimus meter is calibrated to?

The manual says it's calibrated to -18dbfs

Also I wasn't thinking, the actual plugin is called Satson. Sonimus is the company that made the plugin.

[dubdub]

Yes

Right, got it.

Do you have a target dbFS peak level that you aim for? I used to go for -6 (I know it's arbitrary, just picked that one) but recently I've been trying 0db VU = -18 RMS, which usually ends up being anywhere from -6 to -10 dbFS peak. I guess it is potentially less accurate due to larger fluctuations but it is also a less cumbersome target.

I usually have momentary peaks at - 1 with a true peak meter there just to make sure no peaks are jumping the meter. But average peak is generally around - 3.
I generally aim for a DR around 9-12db with Dance music (mixes).
I'm using a lot of super clean clipping in mixing these days, at the channel level, as I am generally thinking about the mastering too, and it means the master engineer has lot less faff when dealing with final levelling.

Thanks. I usually end up with a DR around 10-12 without really looking at meters...

[Lost to the Void]

That's good practice. I work that way too. The mix bus compression then takes things up to final peak level.

Is it good practice simply because it inclines the user to make more intelligent decisions, or is it good practice for some kind of acoustics/audio reason?

All of the above.
It standardises levels meaning your ears have a standard to get used to.
It ensures your gain staging is correct right from the get go, so you have headroom at the beginning of your chain, reducing chance if clipping and increasing chance you are hitting plugins at the optimised level.

[loug]

Can't wait to try this method, thanks!
Any idea what level this Sonimus meter is calibrated to?

The manual says it's calibrated to -18dbfs

Also I wasn't thinking, the actual plugin is called Satson. Sonimus is the company that made the plugin.

Thanks! I use VUMT deluxe, default is the same as the Satson.