Sonarworks Reference 4

[Evert]

At least other members won't face the same issue in the future haha

[Jean Luc Cougar]

Finally have Sonarworks installed and calibrated and thought I would share a picture and some thoughts.

First, my setup and what I thought I was hearing that lead me to trying Sonarworks (BEFORE):
- I have the corner of 1/3rd or so of my living room (a big rectangle, the problem is my speakers are firing down the short wall bc of where the doors are)
- I have always had a hard time with mud and balance
- More specifically, I thought what I was hearing was that my room was slightly bass light
- I thought I might have some confusion in the upper mids bc of the lack of treatment behind my listening position

Here's what I measured with Sonarworks:

2012 mercedes cls550 0 60

I was initially surprised by the results:
- Left to right balance is CRAZY. To have 2 db dip on one side just over 100hz and then a 9db peak is a lot - but I suppose that makes sense with my right monitor in a corner
- I assumed I had a lot of dropoff below 100 bc I felt like I didnt have enough bass, but i think what was confusing me is the unevenness of the 120hz or so region. Maybe that boost was making it seem like I had less bass

Overall, what I hear with Sonarworks engaged (AFTER) is less mud, and to a degree less bass. I think I have to retrain my hearing after this as music is "bass light".
That said, I am just listening now I haven't tried mixing or writing.

Overall, thankful for the purchase, even a smnall percentage increase is valuable but unsure how much this slightly tighter sound will translate to better results when I mix. Will try to remember to report back.

[yentz]

Demoed it and it does sound much more clear. Does everbody find it to lead to better mixes? I suppose in a well treated room the corrections are small and beneficial but I am wondering what is the price to fill my 100 Hz dip. An eq gain at this frequency would e quite substantial - probably with all problems huge eq boosts come with. My room is treated as far as possible in this room on an amateur budget, decaytimes are good but I couldn't get rid of the dip at 100 Hz. Wondering if a eq correction is doing good or bad at those frequencies.
Upper frequencies seem more clear though. Is it possible to limit the algorithm to a specific frequency range?
Did anyone compare to rew measurements imported in a dsp (wondom dsp, mini dsp etc)?

[Aureliano]

Demoed it and it does sound much more clear. Does everbody find it to lead to better mixes? I suppose in a well treated room the corrections are small and beneficial but I am wondering what is the price to fill my 100 Hz dip. An eq gain at this frequency would e quite substantial - probably with all problems huge eq boosts come with. My room is treated as far as possible in this room on an amateur budget, decaytimes are good but I couldn't get rid of the dip at 100 Hz. Wondering if a eq correction is doing good or bad at those frequencies.
Upper frequencies seem more clear though. Is it possible to limit the algorithm to a specific frequency range?
Did anyone compare to rew measurements imported in a dsp (wondom dsp, mini dsp etc)?

Have you worked out whether your 100hz dip is because of SBIR or an Axial mode? If its SBIR you could try moving your speakers around slightly. If Axial, then work out which wall it is and try using a tuned trap there.

[yentz]

I spect it to be SBIR as speaker placement has a huge impact on the dip (just measured after rearranging the studio and it is more around 70Hz). Unfortunately it seems that moving my speakers away from the wall does have a good effect which makes it really hard to have a listening spot from where I can still use the computer and keep all sides of the triangle equal to each other
I read that absorption behind the speakers might help. I suppose the maximum I could get in would be 20 cm. maybe I will try that.

[Belka]

from my noobish DIY point of view what i would try is, find the area behind the Speaker where the 70 HZ resonance is strong/highest and place a tuned absorber in this area, something like a limp mass absorber (easy to build). Absorbing 70 hz with a fullrange Absorber or something like this needs more than 20 cm thickness, more like 40~ (i.e. Rockwool Thermarock). Nother possibility could be a helmholz or a thick polycylindrical diffusor. Dips are the worst motherfuckers of all. How much space you can offer for a absorber behind the speaker max?

[Aureliano]

I spect it to be SBIR as speaker placement has a huge impact on the dip (just measured after rearranging the studio and it is more around 70Hz). Unfortunately it seems that moving my speakers away from the wall does have a good effect which makes it really hard to have a listening spot from where I can still use the computer and keep all sides of the triangle equal to each other
I read that absorption behind the speakers might help. I suppose the maximum I could get in would be 20 cm. maybe I will try that.

By how much did you move your speakers when you rearranged your room? From what I've read, people suggest moving them an inch at a time, fine adjustments and recording each time until you find the best possible compromise. Jumping from 100hz to 70hz seems pretty extreme.

I copied some text from a website or blog sometime ago that is relevant to your comment about the equilateral triangle thing. I didn't note the source unfortunately. There's some useful bits of information that builds to a claim in the last paragraph which suggests that the equilateral triangle position isn't an axiom you need to stick to; it's just a rough estimate. It all depends on your room, your speakers, etc.

So, forget about the equilateral triangle diagrams that you see in many books and internet sites, showing lines coming out of the speakers and meeting in the middle of your head. Rather, pay attention to the more correct diagrams that show the lines coming out the speaker and going past the side of your head, meeting a bit behind your head. Those are the correct ones. That's how you set up the speakers and mix position for the best sound.

But there's one factor missing here: where to put the speakers "side to side". In other words, how far from the side walls, and how far between them. There are some equations for figuring that out too, and one of them just says "About 27% to 30% of the room width": That's where you set up the acoustic axis of your speaker. Call it 28%. So for example, if your room is 10 feet wide, that's 120 inches, so you would set up each speaker at 120 x 0.28= 33.6" from the side walls. And you would then have a distance of about 52.8" between the speakers (acoustic center to acoustic center).

And one other missing factor: where to put your head in the room! There's an interesting and much-debated guideline that says the supposedly best location is 38% of the room depth: 38% of the distance from the front wall to the back wall. So if your room was 10 feet long, then according to this guideline your ears should be about 120 x 0.38 = 45.6" from the front wall. In theory, that's the spot that has the least modal issues in any room. In practice, most engineers seem to prefer being just a couple of inches further forward, so call it maybe 43", or about 110 cm (do the math for your own room! I'm just giving hypothetical dimensions as an example).

So, for the hypothetical room here, the speakers would go with the acoustic axis 48" above the floor and 33.6" from the side walls, with the rear corner 4" from the front wall, and the mix position (engineers ears) set up 43" from the front wall, 47" above the floor, on the room center-line, and the speakers toed in so they both point at a spot about 18" behind his ears. That's the theoretical optimum layout.

Notice I didn't mention any angles there? The famous and sacred "equilateral triangle" insists that the toe-in angle must be exactly 30.00000°, with the engineer's head siting on the tip of that triangle, and the acoustic axes piercing his eyes.... That's silly. Because its the ROOM that dictates where the speakers and mix position go, not an imaginary geometric figure! If you do this setup the way I mentioned it above, you'll find that the angles will NOT be exactly 30°. They will be close, but not exact. Maybe 27°. Maybe 32°. Maybe more. Maybe less. And .... who cares? 30° is a nice figure that is easy to print in the manual, and in fact does work for most rooms... but is not OPTIMAL for ANY room!

[yentz]

I think it was me reading wrong on the waterfall graph. Went through the frequencies wth sweep and realtime analyzer and it is around 80Hz.
I moved the speakers roughly 10cm per speaker (3 inch or so) towards the middle and have risen them from 124 to 133 as I attached rolls to my office chair.
The last measurements werde made with another computer and before adding the tuned traps (built limp membrane traps to solve the long decay times around 47 Hz), a carpet and tidied up the room. Did frontcorner soffits and first reflection point absorbers as well and still experimenting with a dsp anc esp32 for a dba'ish function. It does work but it is quite fiddley.
I also saw schematics that take a double wired speaker take the current generated from the speaker moving because of the waves in the room, aplifying it and make the speaker move even more which then basically sucks the pressure away instead of cancelling it out by phase shifting and playing through sub. Will try this in the next months - should be similar to the avaa principle.
So the old measurements are not really comparable. I am happy with the decay times which were the reason for me to start with the room treatment but well the dip sucks.
Thanks a lot for the linked text. Will go through it tomorrow.
My kh120 are mounted on stands which are very sturdy but a nightmare to shift around on the desk.
Thanks a lot for helping. I might open another thread tomorrow to not hijack the sonarworks thread.
By the way I did measurements in REW today with systemwide on and off and the effects seemed marginal but I will repeat by tomorrow as the sonarworks measurements werde made before changing the speaker positions and are not really saying anything in this situation anyway.

edit: just quickly went through the text you posted. It would help a lot do it like this as I would have to stay away from the screen far too much to be able to work on it with my hands not even reaching the desk. haha.
I suppose the mic would then be placed where the lines meet behind the head?
How do you measure the angles? I find it really difficult to set everything up so precisely.

Anyway. Thanks a lot for helping.

[yentz]

from my noobish DIY point of view what i would try is, find the area behind the Speaker where the 70 HZ resonance is strong/highest and place a tuned absorber in this area, something like a limp mass absorber (easy to build). Absorbing 70 hz with a fullrange Absorber or something like this needs more than 20 cm thickness, more like 40~ (i.e. Rockwool Thermarock). Nother possibility could be a helmholz or a thick polycylindrical diffusor. Dips are the worst motherfuckers of all. How much space you can offer for a absorber behind the speaker max?

I have built some limps for my 47 Hz problem which worked great. Not sure how deep those have to be for like 70Hz - shouldn't be too much. I am still not 100% sure if I should go that way as I don't really get what exactly it is that is causing those problems and I am a bit scared of not solving the issue but having the tuned traps. With 20 cm between wall and screen the porous absorber calculator gives me about 0,5 for sonorock, which is what they sell everywhere here in Germany. Not sure whether this will help or how much it will help.
The limp membrane traps are also meant to be around 40x60 according to the gearslutz thread not sure how much this can be stretched (my desk is 160 cm wide) and I wouldnt want to tune a helmholtzresonator as I read it will be very narrow bandwidth.
Gonna do some more research / measurements tomorrrow and opening a new thread.

Thanks for helping

[Belka]

1. A Dip at around 70 hz sounds like SBIR SBIR Explained so its probally produced by the Wall behind your Speaker (in my Studio, when i move the measurement Mic the Dips get deeper, when i move the speaker you can pitch the Dip
2. A Limp Mass Bass Absorber for under 100 HZ is always 60x40cm, the absorbed frequency is defined by Mass of the Limp Mass by kg per m² and the depth of the Box (as u probably already know because u succesfully build one), due to the fact that you are a german i started a nice thread at recording.de about my build -> https://recording.de/threads/limp-mass- ... er.205118/ Seite 4 sind die Ergebnisse
3. I just build the ones from the thread against modes only, im still not shure if this could help against SBIR, what i acutally know is that Basotec will not Work, i think the the gasflow resistance is to high to absorb that low successfully or you need a really thicc wall of it (pretty expansive), so a thicc Woolrock absorber could help
4. As in the first Link described it looks like SBIR is produced direct behind the Speaker, could be problematic to hang a Limp Mass in that possition, but to absorb 70 hz the depth of the Limp Absorber is not that deep, maybe around 10 cm, my 56HZ Absorber was around 15cm deep.
5. Personally i like the idea of a big ass Polycylindrical Diffusor in that Area Site 1 Post #11

[yentz]

i started a nice thread at recording.de about my build -> https://recording.de/threads/limp-mass- ... er.205118/ Seite 4 sind die Ergebnisse

I actually used the information provided by you in this thread to build mine. Also calculated with 600 instead of 510 (or was it the other way round - can't remember). Thanks a lot for sharing this really helped.

[Belka]

i would calculate with 510 because 600 is a theoretical fixed number in an ideal room/space and what not, cant remember the exact answer i get from an engeneer but he said 510 hits the wanted node way more acccuratly

[yentz]

i would calculate with 510 because 600 is a theoretical fixed number in an ideal room/space and what not, cant remember the exact answer i get from an engeneer but he said 510 hits the wanted node way more acccuratly

Yeah I did it the way you desribed with the linked 3mm Rubber and it worked really well.

[Victor]

Black friday around the corner. 40% off I guess. Worth the plunge? Next months I will be moving different places. So the mic + software should create a more workable setup (No time and funds to re-do acoustics constantly)

[Jesse]

Black friday around the corner. 40% off I guess. Worth the plunge? Next months I will be moving different places. So the mic + software should create a more workable setup (No time and funds to re-do acoustics constantly)

I only used headphones for quite some time, then picked up a set of speakers along with Reference 4. My room is mostly untreated besides a diffuser that I DIY'd out of wood. Doesn't help with trapping bass. Reference really helped with catching the wonky acoustics of the room. Have an 8db spike at 90hz, 10db dip at 130, and 6db spike on left at 300, and the list goes on. Some pretty fucked acoustics going on in my untreated room that I'm sure even Reference 4 can't completely fix. But for 40% off, pick it up. It'll definitely help push the spikes and dips in the right direction.

[Jean Luc Cougar]

^ agreed

[Victor]

Does the latest version still have the speaker profiles in place? Reading different statements that they excluded them bc of copyright issues (only your own situation is an option). I liked the fact of being able to reference with some other monitor settings from different brands. ^^

[Jean Luc Cougar]

I believe they are removed which is a shame bc I would love to try the NS10 one

[Monreal]

Noob question:

Do I have to turn off the app while exporting a track? I'm using the headphone edition with my K701s but everytime I listen to it on my friend's Focal it sounds unnatural to me.

[Lost to the Void]

Noob question:

Do I have to turn off the app while exporting a track? I'm using the headphone edition with my K701s but everytime I listen to it on my friend's Focal it sounds unnatural to me.

Yes, in the latest update of the app, in the settings you can turn on a reminder, so that if you try to render with the app on, it will ping a a reminder window to switch the app off.