Cutting below 20Hz

[Prophän]

I noticed this being brought up a few times on the forum, mainly by mastering/sound engineers over here, and felt like there was a disagreement over all. what do you guys think about it, Came across this video, not sure about the clickbait-ish title, but content seems pretty convincing, any input ?
youtu.be/GeFCv4EuV0s

[Skullrattler]

Cut below 30 Hz is more like it.

[zarkas]

I know that they used to high pass around 30-35hz on vinyl cuts because the needle would jump off -I don't know if that's mentioned on the vid. I have 5inch monitors that don't deliver much below 45 hz but I ve noticed that on some tracks when I have a strict high pass around 20-25 it looses somehow power even on the area around 40-60 hz, I guess it affects the harmonic content.
But if you see the harmonic content of the 909 you ll see that it reaches close to 15 hz, or tracks from Blawah I ve studied they also have content to that area. I don't know the technical stuff behind it and how having or not having freqs down there affects your low end but I definitely have heard a difference when cutting some of that

[Lost to the Void]

Don't do anything by default.

Cutting at 30 by default is a bad idea.
Especially if you cant hear below 30 because your monitors don't represent full range.

I've spoken about this before, but I've noticed a trend for people in techno to cut too high up in thenlqst 12 months.
I've been handed a lot of stuff to master where the cuts go as high as 50 or 60hz. It makes sense, nearfields don't do full range.

Sometimes it's fine to cut at 30 or 40.
But sometimes the difference between cutting at 16 and cutting at 20 can completely strip the guts out of a tune. You may not hear it, but you feel it, the air pressure is still there, or not.

We can safely say that below 16 is dead energy.
That's about the only always we can apply.

Yes hi passing non bass stuff to make room for the bass is a great idea for a coherent mix.
But you have to be more careful when cutting your bass elements.
If you can't hear it then cut low as a caution. A gentle curve down from 20hz
Sometimes headphones can help if your monitors don't do real sub.
Meters aren't too accurate as you start going below 60hz so you cant really rely on them as thebnature of FFT spectrum analyzers means low end accuracy isna compromise, though some meters do have hybrid scanning where the low end uses different architecture.

Yes cutting lows can be useful, but if you cant hear it then you are cutting blind. It all depends on context.
I'll cut a hi hat all the way up at 1k or higher if it works.

[Lost to the Void]

I know that they used to high pass around 30-35hz on vinyl cuts because the needle would jump off -I don't know if that's mentioned on the vid. I have 5inch monitors that don't deliver much below 45 hz but I ve noticed that on some tracks when I have a strict high pass around 20-25 it looses somehow power even on the area around 40-60 hz, I guess it affects the harmonic content.
But if you see the harmonic content of the 909 you ll see that it reaches close to 15 hz, or tracks from Blawah I ve studied they also have content to that area. I don't know the technical stuff behind it and how having or not having freqs down there affects your low end but I definitely have heard a difference when cutting some of that

Not true. Engineers would and do cut the lows where they cut the lows depending on the content and not according to a fixed standard. The only real standard is that Accel limiting in the old Neumann cutting consoles cuts in at 5k.

[Rhzyn]

Great video, thanks for sharing it.

I noticed that after I created a default preset for EQ 8 that slowly trims down anything below 30 up to 20 where it reaches 0 db, and use it on every track, the final mix sounds much more clearer. I rarely see the master meter going all the way up to 0, unless I pump up a channel.

That last two examples of the same song, one with the low end cut and one without it is an eye (or ear) opener.

That being said I still do some experiments with ranges below 30 Hz, just for the fun of it. I'm only using headphones now, but will by myself a pair of entry level monitors (below $200) before the end of this year.

[zarkas]

But sometimes the difference between cutting at 16 and cutting at 20 can completely strip the guts out of a tune. You may not hear it, but you feel it, the air pressure is still there, or not.

that's interesting, could that be what (I think) I am hearing as a difference when applying high pass at different spots on that region(15-35)? I mean could the difference be somehow audible on near field 5'' monitors?

[Amøbe]

I know that they used to high pass around 30-35hz on vinyl cuts because the needle would jump off -I don't know if that's mentioned on the vid. I have 5inch monitors that don't deliver much below 45 hz but I ve noticed that on some tracks when I have a strict high pass around 20-25 it looses somehow power even on the area around 40-60 hz, I guess it affects the harmonic content.
But if you see the harmonic content of the 909 you ll see that it reaches close to 15 hz, or tracks from Blawah I ve studied they also have content to that area. I don't know the technical stuff behind it and how having or not having freqs down there affects your low end but I definitely have heard a difference when cutting some of that

Not true. Engineers would and do cut the lows where they cut the lows depending on the content and not according to a fixed standard. The only real standard is that Accel limiting in the old Neumann cutting consoles cuts in at 5k.

Before Chic's "dance dance dance" everything was cut between 50-60 Hz in mastering as it wasn't intended for big soundsystems (and they wanted to save space on the vinyls). The early disco DJs then used a bass enhancer called a boom box to synthesize a sub underneath.

Source: Jen's Gerrit Papenburg "enhanced bass" in sound as popular culture

[Amøbe]

That's before 1977

[zarkas]

I know that they used to high pass around 30-35hz on vinyl cuts because the needle would jump off -I don't know if that's mentioned on the vid. I have 5inch monitors that don't deliver much below 45 hz but I ve noticed that on some tracks when I have a strict high pass around 20-25 it looses somehow power even on the area around 40-60 hz, I guess it affects the harmonic content.
But if you see the harmonic content of the 909 you ll see that it reaches close to 15 hz, or tracks from Blawah I ve studied they also have content to that area. I don't know the technical stuff behind it and how having or not having freqs down there affects your low end but I definitely have heard a difference when cutting some of that

Not true. Engineers would and do cut the lows where they cut the lows depending on the content and not according to a fixed standard. The only real standard is that Accel limiting in the old Neumann cutting consoles cuts in at 5k.

Before Chic's "dance dance dance" everything was cut between 50-60 Hz in mastering as it wasn't intended for big soundsystems (and they wanted to save space on the vinyls). The early disco DJs then used a bass enhancer called a boom box to synthesize a sub underneath.

Source: Jen's Gerrit Papenburg "enhanced bass" in sound as popular culture

interesting info! Maybe I ve read smth about that and remembered the fact about the needle jump

[Lost to the Void]

I know that they used to high pass around 30-35hz on vinyl cuts because the needle would jump off -I don't know if that's mentioned on the vid. I have 5inch monitors that don't deliver much below 45 hz but I ve noticed that on some tracks when I have a strict high pass around 20-25 it looses somehow power even on the area around 40-60 hz, I guess it affects the harmonic content.
But if you see the harmonic content of the 909 you ll see that it reaches close to 15 hz, or tracks from Blawah I ve studied they also have content to that area. I don't know the technical stuff behind it and how having or not having freqs down there affects your low end but I definitely have heard a difference when cutting some of that

Not true. Engineers would and do cut the lows where they cut the lows depending on the content and not according to a fixed standard. The only real standard is that Accel limiting in the old Neumann cutting consoles cuts in at 5k.

Before Chic's "dance dance dance" everything was cut between 50-60 Hz in mastering as it wasn't intended for big soundsystems (and they wanted to save space on the vinyls). The early disco DJs then used a bass enhancer called a boom box to synthesize a sub underneath.

Source: Jen's Gerrit Papenburg "enhanced bass" in sound as popular culture

Well yes, until the prevalence of the Levan Horn (and 12 inch single releases) in clubs, sub bass wasn't really a thing.
But that's 40 years ago, ancient in recording industry terms, and not really that relavent to this discussion.
Engineers have been cutting for bass for a long time now.
Any good cutting engineer will say the same thing. They cut where appropriate according to the context of the recording and technical requirements/restrictions for that particular cut.

[Lost to the Void]

But sometimes the difference between cutting at 16 and cutting at 20 can completely strip the guts out of a tune. You may not hear it, but you feel it, the air pressure is still there, or not.

that's interesting, could that be what (I think) I am hearing as a difference when applying high pass at different spots on that region(15-35)? I mean could the difference be somehow audible on near field 5'' monitors?

5 inch monitors are a mile away from full range. They won't be accurate in any way below about 50-60hz

[dubdub]

Sometimes headphones can help if your monitors don't do real sub.

Would you consider AKG 701s/702s /w a decent amp to be accurate enough to make decisions sub 30hz?

I almost always prefer kicks /w a 6db slope at 20-35hz, they just sound less brute and a bit more nice and lightwheight. But pretty much all my tunes have basslines where I rarely roll off the subs.

[SHIDZO]

I find cutting the low end can help to tighten it up. Kick and bass "pops" out a bit more. If I cut around that area I am using my headphones to make sure I am not getting rid of stuff that still has information and enhances the mix but I can't really hear in my living room a.k.a. studio.

[Skullrattler]

Yeah when I wrote cut below 30Hz, I meant with a slope, not completely removing low frequencies. For sure it depends on the material. With the stuff I've been doing I find that not filtering below 30 or so I get the same issue that the guy in the video shows .. track sounds quiet and muddy.

[Mattias]

Late to the party of one of my favorite subjects. Steve covered it. Sticky that shit-

[Amøbe]

Not true. Engineers would and do cut the lows where they cut the lows depending on the content and not according to a fixed standard. The only real standard is that Accel limiting in the old Neumann cutting consoles cuts in at 5k.

Before Chic's "dance dance dance" everything was cut between 50-60 Hz in mastering as it wasn't intended for big soundsystems (and they wanted to save space on the vinyls). The early disco DJs then used a bass enhancer called a boom box to synthesize a sub underneath.

Source: Jen's Gerrit Papenburg "enhanced bass" in sound as popular culture

Well yes, until the prevalence of the Levan Horn (and 12 inch single releases) in clubs, sub bass wasn't really a thing.
But that's 40 years ago, ancient in recording industry terms, and not really that relavent to this discussion.
Engineers have been cutting for bass for a long time now.
Any good cutting engineer will say the same thing. They cut where appropriate according to the context of the recording and technical requirements/restrictions for that particular cut.

The paradise garage was (and this makes sense) the first club to install a boom box

[Lost to the Void]

Sometimes headphones can help if your monitors don't do real sub.

Would you consider AKG 701s/702s /w a decent amp to be accurate enough to make decisions sub 30hz?

I almost always prefer kicks /w a 6db slope at 20-35hz, they just sound less brute and a bit more nice and lightwheight. But pretty much all my tunes have basslines where I rarely roll off the subs.

I think you can get a fairly accurate read with them yes. Obviously the physicality of the low frequencies aren`t represented, so you get no sense of air pressure, making sub 30 reading a little less accurate, but with a 6db curve from 20-35 you aren't doing anything hair raisingly hard, so you are pretty safe.


To respond to a post by someone else further up the thread. Muddyness doesn`t really come from the sub frequencies.
Muddyness is about a cluttered and undynamic 200-500 hz region.
Though having a low end all out of wack will mean lower overall final level for sure.

I mean, I`ve mastered and cut records with serious amounts of sub 40hz and we had absolutely no problem getting a nice loud cut.

In the video he goes on about "you can`t hear below 20hz so blah"..... Oh you can`t hear it, but you can FEEL it, and we are dealing with dance music here right? Where having a visceral physical response on the dancefloor is paramount.

So to put it another way, I`ve had stuff sent to me where the music has been cut and rolls out from 30-40hz, quite hard.
And I`ve gone back to the producer and said "you`ve lost a lot of low end here, could you relax your low cuts a little" and they have come back with "there`s nothing down there though". They can`t hear hear that their lows don`t have low grunt so they have cut it.
It`s a common problem, better to be gentle and err on the side of caution than end up with a tune that has no guts on the dancefloor.

Your mastering engineer can cut the lows more transparently than he (or she) can put them back in if you have overdone it yourself.

The best advice in that video linked is right at the end where he says basically, just do it gently and very low. That`s the advice to take, not some arbitrary number like 20hz or whatever.

No 2 tunes are the same, we can`t apply arbitrary processes to anything.

[Fourty Two]

Mr. Void dropping science. That's why I come back every day

[Mattias]

Another thing worth to note is that a lot of people cut steep and find it sounding better while it actually just caused a relief on their small budget speakers.