subsekt

dubdub wrote: ↑

Thu May 27, 2021 8:43 pm

How do you decide on a tool like Soothe vs. a good old regular dynamic EQ? Do you reach for it if the resonances are too peculiar / many / spread out to control with regular dynamic? I've tried Soothe and it seems ... easy to abuse/overuse.

I`ve never needed Soothe for my own productions, I generally control things stage by stage so I don`t end up with sounds that need it.
When I do use it, usually in mastering, it`s more of a last resort than anything. It`s helped me deal with problems that can`t be dealt with by spectral peak taming or dynamic eq or notching. Basically if I can`t return to sender with production fix notes, for whatever reason, then it gives me one last method to deal with issues.
Soft mode on soothe 2 is all I will use, if something needs hard mode, in my opinion, then I shouldn`t be using it..

I guess stuff like this has mostly arisen for the mastering world, it`s a good and a bad thing.
Generally, a higher percentage of stuff that gets delivered for mastering is generally not mastering ready, in comparison to a few years ago.
More people making music, more info, more tools, more production arrogance ("my stuff doesn`t need mastering, my production is perfect") is leading to less material being pro-mixed, or mixed to a pre-master standard.
So mastering engineers are expected to carry more work that really should be handled by the mix "engineer".
As a consequence we are getting more tools like Soothe.
Essentially we are getting more band-aids to fix all these problems. But all these fixes are destructive in some way.
Better stop the wound from happening in the first place than dress the wound after the fact.

The problem is that more and more producers are using these tools to fix their inadequate mix skills, which leads to ever more problems in mastering. It`s become this vicious circle.

And I know some people will say "but the tools are there, we should use them"

Yes, I agree. You could also say "I shouldn`t worry about getting shot, we have great bandages"....

Off-topic semi-rant I know, but all these tools are both a good thing and a bad thing.

Thanks for all the advice. I got the demo of Soothe a while ago for this exact reason, to see if I could go wild on FX like redux and resonators without consigning myself to 10 mins of EQ slog, which isn't the funnest part of the creative process. To my untrained ears Soothe sounded like it was doing the job.

But I checked for Soothe mentions/threads on here and the impression I got was it's best used for emergencies only, e.g. you're mixing/mastering someone's stuff and they've done a poor job that you have to compensate for. Best not viewed as a standard production tool.

I've tried dynamic EQ (TDR Nova) and it seems like a bit of a learning curve. Didn't quite do what I needed after 10-ish mins of tweaking. I want to avoid 10 minute tweaking sessions as far as possible and get on with finishing tracks.

So is there any reason why allowing something like Soothe to do the tedious work for you is a bad thing? I think I know how to EQ the bad bits manually but it is a time consuming ballache. Seems like software is steadily encroaching on 'stuff only skilled humans can do' territory. Is Soothe something that can really enhance your EQ-related life experience or will it make your music flat?

I expect the answer is somewhere in-between: useful if used wisely but don't overdo it. My question is, is getting creatively carried away with mangling FX then sticking Soothe on the end to compensate an unwise approach?

Shit, I missed Lost to the Void's last post before posting mine.

Given that addresses my query to a large extent, the remaining question is -
can automation of boring production tasks, like dealing with resonance, save time and make production more fun without compromising the quality of the music we send for mastering? From a pre-mastering perspective, is it possible to do certain things faster using the band aids while not placing more burden on mastering engineers to sort out the mess?

I love production, but some bits more than others. It would be great to let the machines do the shit bits.

I think the difference is using tools when needed, as apposed to relying on them all the time.
If you are constantly reaching for band aids, then you are doing something wrong, and not learning anything in the process. Then where does it stop?
Next thing you know you are sending your music to Landr and using premade chord sequences etc etc

Or to put it another way, I've mastered KKNull, Merzbow, Masonna, and some other japanoise nutters, and even those guys delivered premasters that were workable for vinyl.
If Japanoise guys can control issues, then literally anyone can.

I don't think short cuts ever really provide a good long term solution. Production and mixing is time consuming, if you aren't up for that, outsource it.

Having mixed, stem mastered and stereo mastered your music, every time the production has gotten better, and required less work from me. So you are probably making more of an issue of this than you need to. You seem to be doing pretty well.

Recently I watched many Rick Snoman videos.
He is talking a lot about and is cutting loooots of stuff/resonances. Many times I can't even hear them. Now I don't when or when no to cut. I'm confused.

collide wrote: ↑

Sun May 30, 2021 2:43 am

Recently I watched many Rick Snoman videos.
He is talking a lot about and is cutting loooots of stuff/resonances. Many times I can't even hear them. Now I don't when or when no to cut. I'm confused.

Don't overthink it.
If it sounds good then it's fine.
If something is nagging your ears, and it isn't meant to be nagging your ears, fix it.

collide wrote: ↑

Sun May 30, 2021 2:43 am

Recently I watched many Rick Snoman videos.
He is talking a lot about and is cutting loooots of stuff/resonances. Many times I can't even hear them. Now I don't when or when no to cut. I'm confused.

Glad I’m not the only one! Rick is chaining up 3 channel EQs because he keeps running out of bands, and I can hardly tell the difference.

Dynamic EQ has always helped me out here.

Suprised at the responses here, if you're routinely cutting resonances then find another sound because you're making a mess. Those "spikes" are the sound's harmonic character. Not to mention the phase weirdness and ringing you might be getting though EQing that much.

Cloaked wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:46 pm

Suprised at the responses here, if you're routinely cutting resonances then find another sound because you're making a mess. Those "spikes" are the sound's harmonic character. Not to mention the phase weirdness and ringing you might be getting though EQing that much.

We aren't really discussing desirable harmonics here necessarily.
Resonances, at least to me, are something just below self resonance.
Common issues I get in mastering when it comes to resonance, or harmonic resonance may be a poorly controlled kick drum with a 2nd or 3rd order Upper harmonic that causes resonant issues when combined with the bass line or low percussion. Or electronic snares sitting in the vocal range that cause the same.

Lost to the Void wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:44 pm

Cloaked wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:46 pm

Suprised at the responses here, if you're routinely cutting resonances then find another sound because you're making a mess. Those "spikes" are the sound's harmonic character. Not to mention the phase weirdness and ringing you might be getting though EQing that much.

We aren't really discussing desirable harmonics here necessarily.
Resonances, at least to me, are something just below self resonance.
Common issues I get in mastering when it comes to resonance, or harmonic resonance may be a poorly controlled kick drum with a 2nd or 3rd order Upper harmonic that causes resonant issues when combined with the bass line or low percussion. Or electronic snares sitting in the vocal range that cause the same.

Right, but you’re taking about frequency clashes / masking in the context of a mix (for which I usually use Trackspacer).

Totally different to EQing a sound in isolation and seeing spikes on the spectrum, thinking “these are all bad, I must remove them”. Those are the actual character of the sound you’ve chosen.

Lost to the Void wrote: ↑

Sat May 29, 2021 5:15 pm

I don't think short cuts ever really provide a good long term solution. Production and mixing is time consuming, if you aren't up for that, outsource it.

Think I'll outsource the walking of my dog instead, to claw back some production time. She definitely thinks my EQ needs work.

Thanks for the sage advice.

Duffdeal wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:23 pm

Lost to the Void wrote: ↑

Sat May 29, 2021 5:15 pm

I don't think short cuts ever really provide a good long term solution. Production and mixing is time consuming, if you aren't up for that, outsource it.

Think I'll outsource the walking of my dog instead, to claw back some production time. She definitely thinks my EQ needs work.

Thanks for the sage advice.

You're mixes are fine man, you are overthinking things I'm sure.

Cloaked wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:17 pm

Lost to the Void wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:44 pm

Cloaked wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:46 pm

Suprised at the responses here, if you're routinely cutting resonances then find another sound because you're making a mess. Those "spikes" are the sound's harmonic character. Not to mention the phase weirdness and ringing you might be getting though EQing that much.

We aren't really discussing desirable harmonics here necessarily.
Resonances, at least to me, are something just below self resonance.
Common issues I get in mastering when it comes to resonance, or harmonic resonance may be a poorly controlled kick drum with a 2nd or 3rd order Upper harmonic that causes resonant issues when combined with the bass line or low percussion. Or electronic snares sitting in the vocal range that cause the same.

Right, but you’re taking about frequency clashes / masking in the context of a mix (for which I usually use Trackspacer).

Totally different to EQing a sound in isolation and seeing spikes on the spectrum, thinking “these are all bad, I must remove them”. Those are the actual character of the sound you’ve chosen.

I'm fairly sure no-one here is talking about pleasing/natural harmonics or masking. Unless I've misread things, or people are confused. The conversation is about difficult/undesired resonances isn't it?
It's possible I have lost my mind. It's been a very busy couple of months and I really need a break.

I think I used to worry about this much more.

Lately I'll probably end up doing a few fine cuts if something is really bothering my ears, but usually that's been done early enough in the process that I don't have to do much at the mixing stage. I feel like this is something that gets talked a lot in video tutorials but isn't actually that important. I've also found that over time I'm much more sensitive to where sounds sit when I'm programming or writing them, which results in less build-up to begin with.

My mixes tend to be fairly sparse, though. I imagine it's more of an issue if you have a really busy track.

Or maybe my mixes just suck...

Well, as Cloaked I think was getting at, the issue tends to come not from individual sounds (though it can once you get to mangling especially with filters, comb filters, ringmod, frequency modulation, etc combined with distortion) but when sounds begin combining. Quite often the sibilance in perfectly good vocals can combine with hi hats or ride cymbals to give nasty resonance spikes, for example.

In such a situation the issue would best be dealt with by targeting the problem frequencies and attenuating them in each sound, or ducking one under the other.

This type of resonance is something I commonly deal with in mastering. It is a more frequent problem, not just that specific scenario I highlighted, but general resonance issues. That indicates to me that people just aren't eqing correctly. And more often than not it is a simple EQ problem, easily fixed in the mix, but will inherently be destructive in some way, when dealt with in mastering.

So as you say, it really is a case of paying attention to your sounds as you go.

Anyone checked out Baby Audio Smooth Operator?

Lost to the Void wrote: ↑

Fri May 28, 2021 3:38 am

It`s not a multiband sidechain on Dragonfire. It is literally like Spectre, but instead of driving into saturation, you are driving into compression, although it does also saturate.

I'm demo-ing it now, I didn't see that the compression action was multiband, I was thought it was just pre/post emphasis wideband compression. Seems pretty neat so far, for both surgical and character use. Does a great job with unruly midrange.

I've been experimenting with mixing into high frequency limiting / de-essing / dynamic EQ etc., I'll give it a try in those applications.

Has it replaced all other multiband comps for you?

dubdub wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:11 am

Lost to the Void wrote: ↑

Fri May 28, 2021 3:38 am

It`s not a multiband sidechain on Dragonfire. It is literally like Spectre, but instead of driving into saturation, you are driving into compression, although it does also saturate.

I'm demo-ing it now, I didn't see that the compression action was multiband, I was thought it was just pre/post emphasis wideband compression. Seems pretty neat so far, for both surgical and character use. Does a great job with unruly midrange.

I've been experimenting with mixing into high frequency limiting / de-essing / dynamic EQ etc., I'll give it a try in those applications.

Has it replaced all other multiband comps for you?

Well it's not multiband but it's not NOT multiband.
I see it as something between Dynamic Spectrum Mapping and Multiband and EQ.
Generally this, followed by something clean to pull everything together is generally all I need for the dynamic balancing part of mastering. Narrow Q problems I go to dynamic EQ.
But yeah, almost immediately from first trying it out it became something I use every day. Specifically for mastering for vinyl it allows me to really lock the bottom end in but still keep punch. It's great for that really fierce Nilz style cut, where the low end feels really pressurised.
I'm still waiting for the first test pressings of stuff I've mastered using this to come back.
But vinyl pressing is as fucked as it has ever been right now.

Lost to the Void wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:23 pm

dubdub wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:11 am

Lost to the Void wrote: ↑

Fri May 28, 2021 3:38 am

It`s not a multiband sidechain on Dragonfire. It is literally like Spectre, but instead of driving into saturation, you are driving into compression, although it does also saturate.

I'm demo-ing it now, I didn't see that the compression action was multiband, I was thought it was just pre/post emphasis wideband compression. Seems pretty neat so far, for both surgical and character use. Does a great job with unruly midrange.

I've been experimenting with mixing into high frequency limiting / de-essing / dynamic EQ etc., I'll give it a try in those applications.

Has it replaced all other multiband comps for you?

Well it's not multiband but it's not NOT multiband.
I see it as something between Dynamic Spectrum Mapping and Multiband and EQ.
Generally this, followed by something clean to pull everything together is generally all I need for the dynamic balancing part of mastering. Narrow Q problems I go to dynamic EQ.
But yeah, almost immediately from first trying it out it became something I use every day. Specifically for mastering for vinyl it allows me to really lock the bottom end in but still keep punch. It's great for that really fierce Nilz style cut, where the low end feels really pressurised.
I'm still waiting for the first test pressings of stuff I've mastered using this to come back.
But vinyl pressing is as fucked as it has ever been right now.

I love the sound of those Nilz cuts!

So you're using it to control bottom end specifically? I'll have a try and see what it does down there...

btw have you seen this? I saw people raving on Gearslogz and thought whatever, they rave about everything but I tried (&bought) it today and damn... It uses some kind of new detection topology that allows for a clean zero sample attack that lets absolutely no transients through without needing lookahead. It's fast enough to take off raw 909 transients with NO clickyness and almost no distortion in a very musical manner (you can dial in a really musical program dependent release), something I've never been able to do with any other compressor (and I hate those transients with a fiery passion!)

+ a really nice punchy snappy VCA mode

a steal at ~30 euros...

https://jonvaudio.com/fircomp2/