neo-trance

[Mimui]

Hello,

Years ago I listened to alot of this music, rumours called it neo-trance, example:
https://www.psyshop.com/shop/CDs/yse/yse2cd126.html

There 's some issues when I try to make it myself,
my question is verry simple, yet verry hard.

How are those tracks mixed like that,
like everything has a ton of space around it.
(reverb I know right, but I mean the clarity within the spaces)

[Planar]

Your question is too wide-ranging really, but it basically boils down to how to do a great mixdown. The short answer is easy: sound choice, placement via panning and reverb, good use of EQ and tasteful use of FX. The long answer is very hard and far beyond the scope of one post.

There's a ton of information on this forum, prepare to spend a lot of time reading it and other sources and even more time putting it into practice. You'll probably never be happy (no-one credible will ever be), but you'll improve over time, maybe to the point where other people will start asking how you make those great mixdowns. The point is that there's no silver bullet, no secret technique, no shortcut. You're either immensly naturally talented or you work at it.

[Lost to the Void]

Genre is irrelevant really.
A good mix is based on

Composition that works in a complementary way, each element complimenting the next (or juxtaposing with dissonance).
A balance of contrast with texture and dynamics
Coherent sound choices. The right sounds picked to fit the right place in the mix which makes the next step easier
Sound EQ technique. Everything is about appropriate use of EQ made easier by picking the right sounds in the first place.
Fx that are complementary to the mix and fit in with all of the above.
Placement, within the stereo field and distance front to back.

Beyond that it is just specific tonal or emotional or aesthetic choices of genre.
A good mix engineer can mix anything.

[TimBuys]

I really wonder how Trentemoller would respond if you woulld call his music "neo-trance" he'd laugh I reckon. The man is one of the best electronic musicians there is and his tracks are on another level. Paul Kalkbrenner and Extrawelt are also seasoned vets. I set myself with more realistic goals instead of ever hoping to achieve that level of perfection .

[Mimui]

Thx for the answers, they make perfekt sense to me.
Basicly I need alot more experience and keep at it then,
How long did it approximitly take for you guys before u started noticing your mixing where good/great?

I 'm soon gonna post a track so I can get some constructive advice
about what should be better and about what sounds totally off
Although, I 'm gonna read some stuff on the forum, test it out, and ask then

I noticed yesterday that when I maximize the volume, something happens to the panning.
It sounds a bit like everything is coming closer to the center,
I 'm searching for a threat about it at the moment.

@TimBuys
Those names are truely amazing, They all have a common thing when u analyze most of their tracks.
The frequency spectrum is almost completely flat at the avg+max standard slope of 4.5

[Lost to the Void]

Thx for the answers, they make perfekt sense to me.
Basicly I need alot more experience and keep at it then,
How long did it approximitly take for you guys before u started noticing your mixing where good/great?

I would say roughly 5 years of good work will get you to an adequate level in terms of mixing skill. Longer to get to a highly professional standard.

[buffered]

when i read neo-trance i thought this was going to be about Lorenzo Senni....

[Mimui]

Halfway there, lol
Gotta keep it up and not rush it then.

Lorenzo Senni 's music is good imo,
yet it 's not neo-trance i think :p

I was amazed by how good trentemoller / pk / extrawelt sounded 10 years ago,
But now I 'm getting to it myself, trying to make that stuff.

Amazed ..

[Mattias]

Halfway there, lol
Gotta keep it up and not rush it then.

Exactly, that's the right attitude!

[Mimui]

hey mattias,
Your stuff rocks.

and Planar,

your collection of noobie threads is like the best on the internet

[Hades]

I fucking love that MFA track, still one of my all time favorite tracks.
but I never heard them being called neotrance, ever.
Rather more minimal, but then more in the minimal house than the minimal techno part.

are you at all interested in older trance mr Mimui ?
If so, I'm from a country that made some of the best trance ever during say (roughly) 93 and 99 or so.
I still listen to some of those tracks nowadays.
It used to be a lot harder and hypnotic, and way more closer to techno than the trance that took over from around 98/99.
If you want some tips on stuff like that, let me know.

I saw Paul Kalkbrenner live once a few months before Berlin Calling was released and he became really big.
He completely brought down the house, and with mainly tracks that nobody (at that point had ever heard before).
Imagine hearing "Sky and Sand" for the first time and then hearing it on the radio months later and remembering that night out.
To me, it's almost a track like Superpitcher's "This is the dream of Evan and Chan" remix.
RA (let's leave in between what people some times think of RA) once described that Superpitcher remix as "the first time you hear it, it's like nothing else in the room exists, you just hear that track" I can still listen to that track and get goosebumps, even if it's like 14 years old or so nowadays.
Same goes for the "Sky & Sand" track.

I really think someone like Kalkbrenner is rather different to some others on that CD you mentioned.
Kalkbrenner keeps it simple. He joest goes for a good riff or melody, and uses only a few elements,
but they work together perfectly.
Haven't heard what he's been up to the last few years though.

[Hades]

How long did it approximitly take for you guys before u started noticing your mixing where good/great?

just keep on putting in the hours man.

I don't consider my music to have good mixes,
but other people tell me they're pretty decent,
so, judging by other people's standards, the short answer to your question would be :
as soon as I seriously started to put in the hours.

I'm a horrible perfectionist, and I had a habit of not finishing tracks for years,
just because I never felt the idea's were good enough to start finishing them.
About 2 to 3 years ago, I finally started finishing stuff, and about 2 years ago, I slowly started to put in serious hours in my mixes.
First time I spent 30 hours in a mix, I was horrified, then another one took me 40 hours, then yet another one eventually even 100.
These numbers are totally over the top, I know, and I'm glad to say they're coming down again now (30 for the last one I consider almost finished),
but yeah, the difference between the track before and after is night and day.

Going back time and time again, listening with extreme attention to every little detail, EQ'ing tons,...
I always think good tracks have about 10 to 20% inspiration (the lovely creative spark) and 80 to 90% transpiration.

But it's different for each one and every one of us...

but I do believe you don't get the results if you don't put in the hours.

[TimBuys]

New Kalkbrenner album doesn't do much for me.

[Mimui]

The new kalkbrenner album isn 't my thing either ,
But that 's what happens when names get big,sadly.

luckely I also saw him at a verry nice gig with a ton of people before he came like this, hahah.
Amazing way of bringing his live set with that mix desk aswell !
He knows his stuff too good .

@Hades
I 'd love to hear some older trance tracks, it might make my vieuw about the sub-genres a bit wider.
Since knowing the source is the best thing to know probably.

My favourite song in that cd is tacky wake up
It 's overal nice and that dark part is just perfekt to me .

I made progress today with mixing aswell,
noticed my sub was taking in so much dynamics becouse i couldn 't hear them in this room
and it 's also tricky with headphones.

It 's one small step for me, but a huge step for my mix. hahah

Now i need to know how to get that warmth u have in you mix "Time will darken it for days"
becouse that 's exactly what I 'm after.

It has that stimming vibe.
awesome

[TimBuys]

I already knew most of the tracks on that CD and that would probably be my least favorite track. The sounds that are used in that track you will find in A LOT of different tracks and to me feel a bit dated.

To each their own ofcourse

[Hades]

Now i need to know how to get that warmth u have in you mix "Time will darken it for days"
becouse that 's exactly what I 'm after.

It has that stimming vibe.
awesome

I'll get back to the rest of your stuff later,
just got up to get an early flight to Berlin for Ableton's Loop.

but that track is old man (I just swap the track in my signature from time to time)
basically it was done the first time mainst09 came over to my place (summer 2015),
he played me one of the last things he had done, and I started to improvise on a rhodes sound.
Later on we worked on that mix (mostly me).
I remember at first he only had all the percussion as 1 audio loop,
and after suffering on making that work for 2 days or so, he found back the separate parts.

Maybe you shoud listen to "So Many Ways To Begin", that might be your thing as well.

We've got a lot of tracks we started but we never finished.
I should finish at least 1 or 2 of those.

anyway,gotta go now.

[Mimui]

oh man, Berlin..

I want to ask; was it fun.
But I 'm sure it was, hahah

I like the track so many ways to begin,
but the magic in time will darken it for years is some other beast
the sounds much sweeter to my ears.

I improved my mix alot past week just by taming the sub bass.
the dynamix range of my tracks increased with about 3 db only by doing that
so that 's quite major, hahah x)

[Cloaked]

I really wonder how Trentemoller would respond if you woulld call his music "neo-trance" he'd laugh I reckon. The man is one of the best electronic musicians there is and his tracks are on another level.

Yeah, his best electronic stuff is still peerless for me. Check out his first release from 2003 - more complexity, depth and beauty than the high point of most producers' career.

He is/was a virtuoso really. No huge surprise he outgrew dance music pretty quickly.

[Hades]

I really wonder how Trentemoller would respond if you woulld call his music "neo-trance" he'd laugh I reckon. The man is one of the best electronic musicians there is and his tracks are on another level.

Yeah, his best electronic stuff is still peerless for me. Check out his first release from 2003 - more complexity, depth and beauty than the high point of most producers' career.

He is/was a virtuoso really. No huge surprise he outgrew dance music pretty quickly.

I hadn't heard his new stuff in years.
Just checking out his last album,
this reminds me so much of early albums from the Cure (not including Pornography, but otherwise pretty much any album up till Disintegration)

[Hades]

oh man, Berlin..

I want to ask; was it fun.
But I 'm sure it was, hahah

I like the track so many ways to begin,
but the magic in time will darken it for years is some other beast
the sounds much sweeter to my ears.
...

Berlin was nice, yeah,
funnily enough it was my 3rd visit, but the 1st one where I actually got to see anything of the city itself.
(1st time was Love Parade in 2000, 2nd time I only saw the cage in Trésor when Pedro played there )
but I behaved and was a good boy,
pretty much every night I was in my hotel by 10PM at the latest. (no matter what people suggested to me)

I started a new job recently, and the learning curve is very intense,
so I'm trying to focus all my energy to just that at the moment,
and after all, going to Loop was about the lectures and workshops for me,
which were all during the day. No point in having a big hang-over.
Some other time I'll try to explore the nightlife more.

Obviously there were hipsters there, and some shitty ego's once in a while (think I mentioned that in other topics here or there),
but yeah, even had a nice talk with Gerhard Behles and Robert Henke at some point,
so stuff like that makes up for the ego-fuckers you meet here or there.

I totally agree "So Many Ways To Begin" is not as good as "Time Will Darken It For Years",
I only suggested it because it's another track me and Pedro made.
There's some other stuff on my SC page that might be more up your alley, but I'm not sure.
Try "Jeune & Jolie", it's the only track I ever made I actually (almost) can't get tired of hearing myself.